AirTran or Continental

[Pulp Fiction]

I was blessed enough to be offered jobs at both AirTran and Continental within days of each other. I have been an admirer of this board for a while and have read every thread out there on both airlines. I will be living in Dallas and trying to do Military reserves in Dallas as well if they will have me. Just looking for some input to see what the folks out there think. Thanks in advance for the replies.

 

[GVEtrucker]

Hey Pulp,

What a nice dilemma! I am not going to help you much since it’s you decision to make and you can weigh the known pros and cons on your own.

Continental is the traditional airline with European flying, 777s, lots of pilots retiring and an ALPA contract. Airtran has a growth rate in excess of 20% and you’ll have 20% of the seniority list behind you by this time next year. DFW may be a crew base by next year too.

What ever decision you make, there are some things that you MUST do to insure you have a stable life (notice I didn’t say stable career)

1. Stay married to the same person. A FedEx guy I met recently said he was working on his retirement ‘A’ fund. I asked him what was that? He said, “staying married to my first wife!”

2. Stay in the reserves. No matter how much money you think you’ll make in your airline career, having the part time job with your Uncle can benefit you in so many ways. It’s the closest thing to a guaranteed retirement out there. Plus the medical benefits in retirement (A huge thing for an aging populace) and a great support group/job networking system if the airline thing hiccups.

3. Live well below your means early in you career. Again, being married to right person is key.

4. Start reading about how to become well off. The Rich Dad Poor Dad series by Robert Kiyosaki is a good place to start.


You are embarking on the best temporary career you’ll ever have. Treat it this way and you’ll never be disappointed.

GVE

 

[BSkin]

GVEtrucker, some of the best advice I've ever heard on here!

Saw this post earlier and really didn't know what to say. Being at AirTran, I hope to never leave. However, given the choice prior to coming here, would have been tough, to say the least.

Pulp, you are blessed, many thousands of professional pilots would love to be in your position. Life at AirTran is pretty good. I started 16 months ago and am 175 of 384 (and growing) of FO's. FO's right now are spending 3-4 months on reserve. Wish you the best on your decision. I know going to a legacy like Continental is hard to pass up.

GVE, to your points,

1. agree, I'm lucky to have a wife that understands this business, and have heard that advice before.

2. agree, wish I had.

3. agree

4. agree, my dad just gave me one of them a few days ago, a must read, he says.

 

[Heavy Set]

Continental if you are interested in any international travel and flying heavy iron. If that doesn't interest you, it is a toss up because you can always bid the 737 and sit on it at CO as well. I have heard nothing but positives about AirTran so that wouldn't be a bad choice either. The commute might be easier with CO if you can bid IAH early...


Let us know what you decide.

 

[Ty Webb]

I started 16 months ago and am 175 of 384 (and growing) of FO's. FO's right now are spending 3-4 months on reserve.

Before anyone who reads this gets confused about the number of pilots here, he is saying that he is bidding #175 out of 384 B717 FO's who are eligible to bid. That number does not include all of the people currently in training, those on the 737, those on Mil leave or Sick or Family leave, or working in the Training Center.

As for which one to take, well, I have been very happy at AirTran, but if I were a newhire looking at both, I would have to give CAL strong consideration. I would want to know the time on reserve at CAL, quality of life for reserve pilots and junior pilots, ease of commute form where you want to live, and the number of years you have left to fly, but CAL looks pretty good, with its fleet, international flying, frugal management, and upcoming retirements.

Whichever you decide, good luck!

 

[AlbieF15]

Look at how both companies handled last post 9/11 downturn. CAL furloughed 20% ASAP. Airtran employees agreed to temporary wage concessions and kept everyone on property.

How optimistic are you about getting enough seniority to dodge the next furlough?

If airlines do well for next 4-5 years, CAL will seem like a good investment. If the market stutters and staggers along, you might well have wished you had gone somewhere that didn't blink when it axed 20% of its workforce. I'm not knocking CAL--as a business it is doing well and as a place to work (if you are working) the equipment and routes seem exciting. In a downturn, however, know you are cannon fodder.

 

[BSkin]

Before anyone who reads this gets confused about the number of pilots here, he is saying that he is bidding #175 out of 384 B717 FO's who are eligible to bid.

That means he is bidding in the middle of the list (which is great after 16 months), but the number of total FO's is much higher than that number suggests.

Very true Ty, my bad for not saying of 717 FO's, not total FO's. Guess I've got more to learn before upgrading

 

[str8upflyrght]

Pulp, you're finally on the board. BMW got me addicted. I would go w/ CAL (probably an easier commute to Houston when you get it), but Albie has some really good points. We'll talk off-line. Holla!

 

[-9Capt]

Unless you have a crystal ball, Go with your gut.

 

[TV9Driver]

Reserves are running 1 month at AirTran right now. Also, you will make around 45-50K first year at AirTran - I think it's around 25-30k at CO. (i could be wrong) Of course first year pay doesn't make a career. I used to work for COEX back when CO owned them - they ran a good business and treated us very well. I'm at AirTran now and i'm looking to upgrade in about 3 years - but you don't get treated quite as well. This is a tough call. Good luck - you'll be happy either way!

 

[ForgedBlade]

Continental!

 

[calfo]

Also, you will make around 45-50K first year at AirTran - I think it's around 25-30k at CO.

AirTran first year pay = $43 per hour. That'd be quite a stretch to get $45K in a year.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

AirTran first year pay = $43 per hour. That'd be quite a stretch to get $45K in a year.

Not true...they have significant soft time built into their contract. Their trip/duty rig system is the best in the industry.

-Neal

 

[aa73]

Look at how both companies handled last post 9/11 downturn. CAL furloughed 20% ASAP. Airtran employees agreed to temporary wage concessions and kept everyone on property.

How optimistic are you about getting enough seniority to dodge the next furlough?

If airlines do well for next 4-5 years, CAL will seem like a good investment. If the market stutters and staggers along, you might well have wished you had gone somewhere that didn't blink when it axed 20% of its workforce. I'm not knocking CAL--as a business it is doing well and as a place to work (if you are working) the equipment and routes seem exciting. In a downturn, however, know you are cannon fodder.

True, but what's to stop Airtran from furloughing pilots in the next downturn you speak of. They may very well not agree to another concession. You can't base furloughs on the way the airline handled just one evnt.

Go to the airline where you will acquire seniority the fastest. Right now I'd put my money on CAL, they are growing much faster than Airtran, and not only that, there is much more attrition with retirements.

Goodn luck w/ your decision.

 

[Pulp Fiction]

Thanks for all the good advice. I have a good woman at home who will support me in anything I do. The international flying isn't a factor in my decsion, because I will get that in the military and have already had my fair share of it.

 

[BSkin]

Reserves are running 1 month at AirTran right now.

This is not true on the 717 side, 3-4 months as I previously stated. Things may have changed in the last two months as I've been out with a blown knee, but most people are still getting the 717. Again, good luck on the decision!

 

[AMRCostUnit]

Thanks for all the good advice. I have a good woman at home who will support me in anything I do. The international flying isn't a factor in my decsion, because I will get that in the military and have already had my fair share of it.

Don't count out 121 international flying. Much easier than in the military. Bus picked us up at the bottom of the jetbridge and dropped us off there too. 10 minutes to flight plan. Plus 3 man over 8 hours (4 over 12) and with the longer block times you get more days off in between. I LOVED the 767/777 out of ORD east and west. Lots of time off, except around the holidays as I was junior on reserve. I miss it greatly but on the domestic -800 in MIA I am much more senior get to spend the important days at home for a change.

I'd look hard a CO. The best place on the list is to be pulled from the top with retirements and pushed from the bottom with new hires. We have CASS and lots more flights out of DFW to EWR/LGA/JFK than we do to ATL if you need to commute.

In the long run I wish I had done the Reserves, mostly for the medical. That will be a big expense to cover on an uncertain retirement picture. I am looking at starting some kind of business to help with the cashflow and tax deductions. Read RDPD and go buy some rentals in the DFW area. I think prices have been fairly flat over the past few years and there will be some room for appreciation. You won't get rich flying jets anymore but make enough to leverage some cash into other ventures.

Not trying to hijack the thread but anyone Optioneering out there? www.optioneer.com I did ok last year but have suspend trading this year. Anyone getting any good trades?

Unit
ORD International Refugee

 

[AMRCostUnit]

I've been out with a blown knee...

Owwwwch...been there several times, once on a layover. No surgery as of yet. Takes me about 30 days to get back on my feet. Take her slow...

Unit
Bum Knee Club Member

 

[BSkin]

Owwwwch...been there several times, once on a layover. No surgery as of yet. Takes me about 30 days to get back on my feet. Take her slow...

Unit
Bum Knee Club Member

Four hour surgery (more complicated than MRI indicated) -- ACL replacement w/ 2/3 of a torn meniscus. How much are the dues for the BKC club 'cause after seeing my first bill with insurance, homey can't afford much until back on the job! Glad I didn't see the bill before being able to donate to the red cross, and I hope all that read this either have, or will.

 

[Ty Webb]

I hope all that read this either have, or will.

My wife raised $4400. for hurricane victims this week, and still wrote a check from our account for $250. to the fund . . . . go figure.

 

[Ty Webb]

True, but what's to stop Airtran from furloughing pilots in the next downturn you speak of.

The Pilot Group . . . the same ones that agreed to it in '01.

Go to the airline where you will acquire seniority the fastest. Right now I'd put my money on CAL, they are growing much faster than Airtran, .

Ah, another brain sturgeon.

CAL has 4500 pilots, and AirTran has 1200. Airtran is hiring more than 20/month. CAL is rumored to hire 60/ month, so, actually, you acquire seniority faster at AirTran.

As for growth, Airtran has expanded at a rate in excess of 20% per year for the 4 years I have been here. So much for your other theory about growth.

Hey, you're 0 for 3, but keep swinging, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Pilotbob3]

c'mon Ty....i know you are biased but CO is retiring thousands in the next few years

 

[AV80R]

“This is not true on the 717 side, 3-4 months as I previously stated.”

Bskins - We have four - 717 new hires (all were in a different class) and two fairly new – 737 fo’s in our crash pad. The only guy who was on reserve for more than a month was a 737 guy who refuses to do stand-ups. All the other guys got about a month reserve, then a month of either a build-up or a stand-up line followed by a hard line. I guess they might be the exception to the rule but I seem to be hearing that 1 possibly 2 months of reserve is now pretty common.

“AirTran first year pay = $43 per hour. That'd be quite a stretch to get $45K in a year.”

Calfo – to my surprise, I think the numbers are pretty accurate. No one flies 70 hours (our min. guarantee), 85-95 hours seem to be the norm.

Pulp Fiction - Good luck with your decision, it's a win-win situation for you!

 

[mnboyev]

Depends how old you are ? If your over 40.. AirTran. Only 20 to go. Besides... Who wants to sit in EWR on reserve. I'd rather sit in the sun in ATL waiting for ScrewScheduling to ring ya.

What if CAL buys NWA?

Of course.. what if MidEx buys AirScam ? Just a little fun guys...

Good Luck... Have Fun... QOL and commute are pretty heavy items to consider. Best Wishes.

 

[aa73]

The Pilot Group . . . the same ones that agreed to it in '01.

No matter what the pilot group does, in certain cases they can't prevent management from furloughing.... your body can only take so much kool-aid. If mgt needs to shrink the airline, you will get furloughed.

Ah, another brain sturgeon.

CAL has 4500 pilots, and AirTran has 1200. Airtran is hiring more than 20/month. CAL is rumored to hire 60/ month, so, actually, you acquire seniority faster at AirTran.

As for growth, Airtran has expanded at a rate in excess of 20% per year for the 4 years I have been here. So much for your other theory about growth.

Hey, you're 0 for 3, but keep swinging, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Sorry, no broken clock here, just facts. Not too many pilots are retiring from Airtran right now, so with 60/month at CAL combined with their growth, you would do much better at CAL seniority wise. Airtran can only grow so much domestically. 20% growth is great, but it's limited to the USA. (Unless Airtran starts going Int'l). 20 pilots a month vs 60 a month... duhhh!

I think you meant I'm 3 for 0. Darn dyslexia again, huh?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

True, but what's to stop Airtran from furloughing pilots in the next downturn you speak of. They may very well not agree to another concession. You can't base furloughs on the way the airline handled just one evnt.

Go to the airline where you will acquire seniority the fastest. Right now I'd put my money on CAL, they are growing much faster than Airtran, and not only that, there is much more attrition with retirements.

Goodn luck w/ your decision.

I think the "senior accumulation" will be better at Airtran. The ratio of new aircraft on order to those currently in service is higher. Thus the estimated time to Captain is shorter. I'm not saying one should depend on making Captain in the current time to Captain but looking at that tells you how fast seniority is rising.

If you use the traditional "number of pilots between you and the bottom person" then CAL is your best bet. But I'm betting a nasty downturn would put more CAL pilots on the street than Airtran pilots.

Retirements are big at CAL. At least 5-7% of pilots on the property now every year. Will that actually hurt the company?? It hurt Delta.

But CAL has high profit international and good domestic feed for that international flying. CAL is making good revenue with its assets.

Tough call.

 

[TV9Driver]

I spent exactly 1 month on reserve at AirTran after my consolidation line the first month, followed by 2 build up lines, then a (hopefully) hard line next month.

As far as pay goes, we are averaging about 90 hours a month right now(including our slow 78 hour Sept). Let's do the math shall we....

90 hours at 43/hr = $3870/month = $46,440 / year plus about $6,000 in per diem a year.

personally, i've been averaging 99 hours a month the four months i've been on line, so I could potentially make significantly more for the year if this keeps up. - or i'll wind up burnt out and dead.

 

[aa73]

I think the "senior accumulation" will be better at Airtran. The ratio of new aircraft on order to those currently in service is higher. Thus the estimated time to Captain is shorter. I'm not saying one should depend on making Captain in the current time to Captain but looking at that tells you how fast seniority is rising.

If you use the traditional "number of pilots between you and the bottom person" then CAL is your best bet. But I'm betting a nasty downturn would put more CAL pilots on the street than Airtran pilots.

Retirements are big at CAL. At least 5-7% of pilots on the property now every year. Will that actually hurt the company?? It hurt Delta.

But CAL has high profit international and good domestic feed for that international flying. CAL is making good revenue with its assets.

Tough call.

I agree that Captain upgrade is shorter at Airtran, without a doubt. I think it takes two to three years, correct?

However, look at this. If you hire on at CO with a seniority # of, say 4500, and 500 retire this year, you jump up to 4000 at the end of the year. Then, with 60/month from now till next year, you'd have 720 pilots behind you. You'd be # 4000 out of 4720 in one year. Captain upgrade at CO is around the 3500 mark - or another year or two at worst. That makes a 3 year upgrade at CO possible, as well. Plus you'd have almost 1000 pilots behind you, assuming no more downturns, which is more than 20% of the seniority list. I'd say you'd be pretty safe if furloughs do happen (however NOBODY KNOWS!)

If you can run the same numbers at Airtran with captain upgrade possibly being equal, then it is indeed a tough choice. I know Airtran is growing as well. The question is, how big do they plan on becoming, without adding int'l service? Plus, how about attrition? I would assume nobody is leaving Airtran to go to other airlines, so that leaves retirements - are there any going on right now?

I think it's pretty safe to say that both would give you very good seniority.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

CAL looks like a better choice than I thought. I change my mind. CAL is better, IMHO.


off topic--Could the disruption of operations at New Orleans hurt CAL and SWA enough to affect hiring this year and next??

 

[180ToTheMarker]

What if CAL merges with DAL or NW? Then CAL new hires could concievably get put behind furloughed guys at those carriers and end up working at Lowe's. Something to consider. Good luck.