AirTran MEC CYA

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Sure, I do. Who else is going to teach you how to use VNAV, Howard?

Funny... From what I hear you guys have some real weak sisters as far as flying skills go.

 

[fletch717]

Funny... From what I hear you guys have some real weak sisters as far as flying skills go.

Yeah, we are hearing stories about your HUD cripples, Seems like our sisters have relatives at your place too!

 

[freightdogfred]

Here we go, now the real mudslinging begins in earnest...

Let the FOQA gatekeepers head this one off at the pass,

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, to be clear here . . . my intention wasn't to be "ugly", only to give back a little light-hearted humor, which Howard seems to have understood.

Unfortunately, our new brother Kermit is obviously suffering from a case of micro-phallus, a serious condition that, while not grounds for denial of a medical certificate, is still an obviously painful and debilitating condition, as I am sure Mrs. Frog can attest to. :laugh:

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Yeah, we are hearing stories about your HUD cripples, Seems like our sisters have relatives at your place too!

Ya. We have Air Force guys too. And Ty, why is small wang the first thing that comes to your mind?

 

[Ty Webb]

. . . . Ty, why is small wang the first thing that comes to your mind?

Well, it seemed logical, after the 30% "reduction" I received from the merger.

 

[HowardBorden]

Well, to be clear here . . . my intention wasn't to be "ugly", only to give back a little light-hearted humor, which Howard obviously understood.

Unfortunately, our new brother Kermit is obviously suffering from a case of micro-phallus, a serious condition that, while not grounds for denial of a medical certificate, is still an obviously painful and debilitating condition, as I am sure Mrs. Frog can attest to. :laugh:

I'm all for poking a little fun, no harm no foul.

Lets be honest, we all have certain individuals who choose to do things their own way while still technically coloring within the lines.

I flew with a guy recently who chose to fly an entire descend via clearance with no autothrottles or VNAV hooked up at all. He flew the entire arrival in "control wheel pitch." As a matter of fact he missed every altitude and airspeed by a few feet and a few knots the whole way. Nothing major, a few feet and a few knots either side. I just sat there and scratched my head and thought why? It would have been so much easier and precise in VNAV, but to each his own. Nothing in the books prevents you from doing it that way, it just seemed like a lot of work with no real precision. Sometimes the autopilot actually can do it so much better than we are able to.

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, if you have already mastered VNAV, you leave me no choice. . . .

Standby for a thermonuclear compilation of "Your Momma so fat" put-downs, starting in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1. .

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[HowardBorden]

Well, Howard, if you have already mastered VNAV, you leave me no choice. . . . .

Stand by for some of my best "Your Momma so fat" put-downs, starting in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1. .

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

VNAV mastered, not even close! I'm not sure what version of software you guys are running on that side of the partition, but the version over here was taken from the -200. Nothing is easy or makes a lot of sense. I am still continually in the "what's it doing now?" mode of operation.

 

[texman]

All I can say is the SWA pilots can still hand fly the crap out of the airplane. Fly the automation don't let automation fly you.

 

[fletch717]

All I can say is the SWA pilots can still hand fly the crap out of the airplane. Fly the automation don't let automation fly you.

The older I get, the more automation I like. Hand flying " the crap" out of a 737 is just not that impressive. Sorry to dent your ego.

 

[vixin]

VNAV hooked up at all. He flew the entire arrival in "control wheel pitch." As a matter of fact he missed every altitude and airspeed by a few feet and a few knots the whole way. Nothing major, a few feet and a few knots either side. I just sat there and scratched my head and thought why? It would have been so much easier and precise in VNAV

Have you used our VNAV? I think if he was with in a few feet and knots of every altitude then he was on par with the VNAV. While I use it as we are supposed to. We do have many that just dont get it or how to operate it smoothly.

 

[FlyinGuy]

All I can say is the SWA pilots can still hand fly the crap out of the airplane. Fly the automation don't let automation fly you.

You mean like these two guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRNWFtgXo2E

I know "Goose" died, but I think "Mav" went to SWA....or maybe AT...not sure.

 

[Ty Webb]

All I can say is the SWA pilots can still hand fly the crap out of the airplane. Fly the automation don't let automation fly you.

Well, I fly the crap out airplanes too. . . . In fact, I fly so much crap out of these airplanes that, when I land, a little white truck comes over and pumps it all out . . . . That's how much I fly the crap out of the airplane.

 

[Tripower455]

Have you used our VNAV? I think if he was with in a few feet and knots of every altitude then he was on par with the VNAV. While I use it as we are supposed to. We do have many that just dont get it or how to operate it smoothly.

I was thinking the same thing. The software sucks, particularly in the '700s. The -800's seem to be better, in my limited experience flying them.

Ironically, the "Classics" rarely need to be touched in VNAV path, other than (obviously) throttle manipulation at the TDs/level offs.

261=246 in the mind of -700 VNAV, which leads to the ATs increasing thrust (too late), with not enough pitch correction, putting you even further above path, VNAV path then disconnects. FWIW, I've never seen one go significantly below path, but they often go above.

I can definitely fly the -700 more accurately than the currently installed VNAV, and often have to.

 

[texman]

The older I get, the more automation I like. Hand flying " the crap" out of a 737 is just not that impressive. Sorry to dent your ego.

FletchY AND TYrony,

You guys know what I mean No harm to my ego, I hardly have one. Yes I agree with the less work the better. I came from a Highly automated work place before SWA. When I got to SWA my observation was the pilots hand fly the airplane a lot. Geeeezzzzz you guys need to chill

 

[FlyinGuy]

The older I get, the more automation I like. Hand flying " the crap" out of a 737 is just not that impressive. Sorry to dent your ego.

Maybe not, but what you are gonna have to work on is grabbing the f/a hand mike and doing your "hero" PA in front of the pax. That is when you know you are a well rounded aviator! Then you strap on the bird and make her dance. If you pass the test, you might be hand selected to fly out of PHX.



Problem is that most of those donger's don't understand that grandma is not impressed the with your 2.5 g pull at 35 degrees of bank!!!

 

[terrehautesux]

You know what's a better flying airplane than the 737??
The 717, enjoy Delta.

 

[freightdogfred]

Maybe not, but what you are gonna have to work on is grabbing the f/a hand mike and doing your "hero" PA in front of the pax. That is when you know you are a well rounded aviator! Then you strap on the bird and make her dance. If you pass the test, you might be hand selected to fly out of PHX.



Problem is that most of those donger's don't understand that grandma is not impressed the with your 2.5 g pull at 35 degrees of bank!!!

That's funny right there, I don't care who ya are. Mebbe I'll bid PHX to make some new friends

 

[Secret Squirrel]

The performance may suck but at least the seats are uncomfortable. Yea, the 717 is an incredible airplane.

 

[carl p]

The performance may suck but at least the seats are uncomfortable. Yea, the 717 is an incredible airplane.

LOL, classic!!!

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, if I had to choose between the 737 and the 717 for summertime operations in the thunderstorm-infested ATL terminal area, I'd probably choose the 717. Even though the cooling and climb performance are better in the 73NG, the 717 has got better radar, higher wing-loading, higher flap speeds, and the skin is twice as thisk . . . the thing's a tank. . . . The 737, by comparison, feels like a Cessna 172.

 

[HowardBorden]

Well, if I had to choose between the 737 and the 717 for summertime operations in the thunderstorm-infested ATL terminal area, I'd probably choose the 717. It's got better radar, higher wing-loading, higher flap speeds, and the skin is twice as thisk . . . the thing's a tank. . . . The 737, by comparison, feels like a Cessna 172.

Unfortunately, it's not a question of performance it's a question of economics. The 717 has higher maintenance costs, similar operating costs and carries far less profit generating customers. On top of the massive costs of operating a second fleet type that include training pilots, F.A.'s and mechanics and carrying millions of dollars of additional parts. It simply did not make any sense to expand to a second fleet type when it did not bring anything to the table that the 737 could not do as well with similar operating costs.

I am constantly amazed when I hear that the AirTran folks were shocked to hear the 717 was leaving the fleet. I agree there should have been more transparency with the issue to AT pilots so they could bid accordingly. It is also clear that there should be a new system that respects seniority to bid across to SWA regardless of base or fleet type.

 

[PCL_128]

I am constantly amazed when I hear that the AirTran folks were shocked to hear the 717 was leaving the fleet.

Why don't you ask Russ M. about that, since he was the senior manager attending road shows when we were told that the 717s would be staying until lease expiration.

 

[HowardBorden]

Why don't you ask Russ M. about that, since he was the senior manager attending road shows when we were told that the 717s would be staying until lease expiration.

Plans change constantly in a large corporation. What doesn't change is language in a contractual document, like this excerpt from the Q and A section of Side Letter 10:

"Q In the event that B717's are replaced with different aircraft, will B717 captains keep their captain seats?

A AirTran pilots whose seat position is eliminated by reduction of the B717 fleet will bid system seniority for their new assignment. (27.F.2)"

 

[Ty Webb]

Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.

 

[HowardBorden]

Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.

Again, plans can and do change in a large corporation. If no one at AirTran saw this coming you were blind to portions of S.L.10 that specifically addressed what would happen in the event that the 717 fleet was retired. When it is specifically stated that this could happen you have to entertain the possibility that it may in fact happen. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

 

[Tripower455]

Howard, given the outcome, perhaps it seems obvious now, but at the time, SWA management was conducting face-to-face meetings with our Pilots, telling them that the aircraft would be kept until the leases started expiring in 2017. . . . announced a TPA 717 domicile, put it out for a bid, and awarded the positions.

I have been awarded a 717CA position at SWA. I guess we'll eventually see what that means.

They told us the same thing. Heck, The TPA 717 domicile was gonna be the only positive part of this deal for me.

 

[canyonblue]

Why don't you ask Russ M. about that, since he was the senior manager attending road shows when we were told that the 717s would be staying until lease expiration.

Yeah, they told my new-hire class would would be Captains in 5 years. I should sue the friggen liars.

 

[FIREMAN]

Again, plans can and do change in a large corporation. If no one at AirTran saw this coming you were blind to portions of S.L.10 that specifically addressed what would happen in the event that the 717 fleet was retired. When it is specifically stated that this could happen you have to entertain the possibility that it may in fact happen. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Plans do change, however, meany feel dumping the 71 was the plan all along.