AirTran MEC CYA

[PCL_128]

The AirTran MEC was hell bent on not negotationing in good faith . They had a full proff plan and no intentions of listening to your NC.

The MEC's position was always reasonable, unlike your union's position of "no harm" being defined as not one pilot on your side ever having less relative seniority the entire length of their careers as a result of the merger.

Why don't you tell this crowd the background of your MEC, and how some of them have such hate for SWA. They threw the AT pilots under the bus, because of there hate for SWA.

Seriously? Who exactly would that be? Most of the MEC members were SWA cheerleaders. Do you really think that a bunch of SWA haters would have approved of your "Round Up" events where you SWAPA execs and NC had full access to our pilot group? When a certain someone told the MEC that such an idea was crazy, every single MEC member told him that he was being too untrusting and that "SWA isn't like that, they won't try to take advantage." The truth is that our MEC was living in a fantasy world, and they didn't wake up to how they were being raped until the deal came back from Dallas.

The AirTran pilots picked the NC.

No, they didn't. The MEC picked them.

 

[jonjuan]

That's a remarkably shallow analysis.

"Perception is reality."

This is fun. Your turn.

 

[redflyer65]

The truth is that our MEC was living in a fantasy world.

This is where the ALPA dysfunction really shines. Let the MC negotiate with NO updates or input from the MEC, then act shocked when the product is produces.

It was absolutely the MEC's game plan to run the clock out, that might not have been the case until they saw the agreement. But it became the game plan quickly.

 

[PCL_128]

This is where the ALPA dysfunction really shines. Let the MC negotiate with NO updates or input from the MEC, then act shocked when the product is produces.

Not ALPA dysfunction. MEC dysfunction. No other ALPA MEC has taken so much of a hands-off approach. Our MEC did because of petty politics, and it backfired.

It was absolutely the MEC's game plan to run the clock out, that might not have been the case until they saw the agreement. But it became the game plan quickly.

You keep getting this wrong. There was no plan to run out any clock, either before or after the deal. In reality, one of the main reasons for voting the deal down at the MEC level instead of allowing the pilots to vote it down (as they almost certainly would have done) was because the MEC was concerned about not having enough time, in fact. The timeline was compressed for going to mediation and arbitration, and they didn't want to waste valuable weeks on road shows for an agreement that was going to fail. Those weeks needed to be focused on preparing for mediation and arbitration. So the idea that they were trying to kill time is not only wrong, it's also the opposite of what the MEC was doing.

 

[Ty Webb]

Yes. Please don't rewrite history. Especially when you were not privy to the offers on the table.

Do tell. . . . . .

 

[GoodTimes]

Cool avatar, Ty. Any idea which plane that is?

 

[Ty Webb]

Cool avatar, Ty. Any idea which plane that is?

Thanks!

Sikorsky S-42. I believe the Capt is Ed Musick, who was Pan Am's Chief Pilot during much of the "Pan Am Clipper" days. He was killed in an inflight explosion.

Here's another great pic of that aircraft, passing over the Golden Gate bridge, which was still being constructed:

http://www.nickgrantadventures.com/Clipper_NC_823M_S-42.jpg

 

[slaquer5]

Thanks!

Sikorsky S-42. I believe the Capt is Ed Musick, who was Pan Am's Chief Pilot during much of the "Pan Am Clipper" days. He was killed in an inflight explosion.

Here's another great pic of that aircraft, passing over the Golden Gate bridge, which was still being constructed:

http://www.nickgrantadventures.com/Clipper_NC_823M_S-42.jpg

Very cool pic Ty .

 

[GoodTimes]

Great history. Thanks for the link, Ty.

 

[Tripower455]

No one advocated our top guys next to yours. A blended list would have started around 1996.

That's exactly where the AT guys start blending into the list.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Its a little bit depressing to see that we are still litigating this.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Its a little bit depressing to see that we are still litigating this.

It will end someday. Probably the day after the last guy on the list retires. It all comes down to this the law says "fair and equitable". In the real world only 3 things matter 1. Pay 2. Quality of life 3. Job stability. In all cases EXCEPT pilots arbitrators factor these 3 factors and come up with a list. In the case of pilots the ONLY thing they try and do is limit seat movement and training costs and they come up with a list that reflects that. The SWA pilots wanted a staple to gain all 3 at the expense of the AAI pilots. The AAI pilots wanted to go to the kangaroo court of arbitration because they knew they would gain all 3 at the expense of the SWA pilots. The CEO rejected both and handed us a list where most people will either keep roughly the same QOL and pay or lose QOL but gain pay. The downsizing of ATL and the departure of the 717 are separate issues from the SLI but the AAI pilots like to roll them in to make their case. Bickering about this keeps them from talking about real issues like being down to 652 airframes the day the walls come down with no guarantee the fleet grows from there.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Bickering about this keeps them from talking about real issues like being down to 652 airframes the day the walls come down with no guarantee the fleet grows from there.

Welcome to the discussion Mr. Debbie Downer. Always a pleasure to see you join in.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Yeah everyone hates when I interject with facts. Latest fleet projections are 688 airframes on 1/1/2015 BUT that includes 36 717s that won't be in the schedule. By my Indiana public school math that leaves 652 airframes producing block hours. This makes sense because replacing 88 717s with -800s allows the fleet to shrink by 29 airframes while producing the same ASMs assuming flat block hours. The other 17 I can only assume are due to the fact that the 717s aren't producing that many block hours. The size of fleet in 2015 and beyond will depend on the classic fleet retirements which is somewhat unknown.

 

[humveedriver]

Southwest Airlines has revised its delivery schedule and order with Boeing to shift more of its new aircraft purchases to the more fuel-efficient 737-7 MAX, and reduce some near-term capital spending.

The low-cost carrier also agreed to acquire 10 used Boeing 737-700 aircraft for delivery in 2014 and 2015 to fill the hole created by delivery schedule deferrals and keep its fleet from shrinking.

Southwest continues to shop for more used aircraft. ?We will continue to monitor the pre-owned market for attractive opportunities,? Chairman, President and CEO Gary Kelly said at the airline?s annual shareholder meeting on May 15. Those aircraft that Southwest has already agreed to purchase have about the same average age as the rest of the carrier?s fleet, which is 8-9 years, and Kelly says the airline will strive to keep its average fleet age in that range when considering future used aircraft acquisitions.

?We can buy very good airplanes with 10-15 years of remaining useful life,? which then would be replaced with the MAX, he added. Southwest, which is the launch customer for the 737-7, would prefer to acquire only new aircraft, but the MAX is not available until after 2017, Kelly noted. The airline also needs aircraft before 2017 to fill some gaps created while AirTran Airways aircraft are in maintenance for conversion to the Southwest brand.

Kelly confirms that the 737-7 is intended to replace the carrier?s 143-seat 737-700s. With the Boeing order restructuring, Southwest will?eventually?be getting a lot more of them. The airline previously planned to receive 150 Boeing 737-8 aircraft between 2017-2022. Under the new schedule it still will get those on an altered timetable (2017-2024), but also will take delivery of 30 737-7s: 15 in 2019, 14 in 2020 and one in 2021.

Southwest was able to make that shift by converting 30 Boeing 737NG firm orders in 2017 and 2018 to MAX firm orders, deferred to 2019-2021. It also converted 12 737NG options in 2014 and 2015, and 29 in 2017 and 2018 to 737 MAX options, with delivery deferred beyond 2024. The order changes increase Southwest?s 737 MAX options from 150 to 191.

The airline also has the right to revise its MAX order.

For 2014, five Boeing 737-700 firm orders have been converted to 737-800s, five options were exercised for 737-800 deliveries from Boeing, and five options to purchase Next Generation aircraft were relinquished. Five options in 2015 were also relinquished.

The restructured aircraft delivery schedule will reduce the airline?s capital spending for firm orders through 2018 by more than $500 million. It also defers nearly $2 billion in potential capital spending on option aircraft deliveries beyond 2018.


-That article is all I know about SWA fleet plans. It basically says they want to buy/lease certified pre owned -700's instead of brand new ones. Keeping the Max as the true future of SWA. Ghetto I'm not sure why you would even pretend to guess what the fleet is going to look like in 2015. Since we don't have the schedule I would say its impossible to guess. What I suspect is there will be more international frequency then what Airtran currently has. Post SOC, we have barely started to scratch the surface on opportunities in Mexico. CUN has seen a little ramp up, but I think Cabo, CUN and a couple others are going to get some serious yearly frequency. The island stuff and new destinations may take longer. Just my humble opinion, because of their seasonality.

 

[race#53]

Ty,
Proof that if you suffer through all of the BS on FI you will come across a gem like the photo of the S-42...thanks,
Dennis in Chicago

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

In the past I was just making educated guesses about fleet plan. The company and SWAPA and I would assume ALPA know what the fleet plan is. If you know where to look you can find the same info that I just repeated.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Yeah everyone hates when I interject with facts. Latest fleet projections are 688 airframes on 1/1/2015 BUT that includes 36 717s that won't be in the schedule. By my Indiana public school math that leaves 652 airframes producing block hours. This makes sense because replacing 88 717s with -800s allows the fleet to shrink by 29 airframes while producing the same ASMs assuming flat block hours. The other 17 I can only assume are due to the fact that the 717s aren't producing that many block hours. The size of fleet in 2015 and beyond will depend on the classic fleet retirements which is somewhat unknown.

Yes, you throw in some facts, alright,... but then you jump to conclusions not supported by those facts, and act as you have all the answers. The reality is, that you cherry pick a few facts to make it look like your pre-formed and somewhat bizarre pessimistic conclusions sound valid.

You are the same guy who a while back used your "facts" to supposedly "prove" impending Southwest furloughs. Literally every single one of your posts screamed about these furloughs (although you did occasionally throw in "facts" about "givebacks and concessions" in our upcoming Section 6).

Regarding airframes: Your "loss of 29 airframes" conclusion from cherry-picked facts is complete BS. Gary has said numerous times that the 717s going away are being replaced by aircraft purchases and life extension of a bunch of -300s. How in the hell did your mind leap to the conclusion that he'll replace the exact number of seats from those 717s solely with 737-800 purchases?! Seriously, where do you get this crap?

He's already spent money to keep -300s longer, that were slated to be replaced (reskinning & winglets, GPS, upcoming evolve interiors) for this exact reason. Do your "facts" tell you that he's going to throw away all that upgrade money by retiring those specific -300s before recouping his investment?

As far as replacement aircraft go, he's been saying for over a year now that Southwest is looking at used -700s to augment 717 replacement plans. And, in fact, he's already signed for 10 of these jets from WestJet to start. Do you think it occurred to him that he can operate a 737-700 for the exact same cost as he can a 717 (an -800 would be more)? Do you think that it occurred to him that as the 737-MAX gets closer in the next year or three (during the 717 divestment schedule), he can get used -700s even cheaper?

The company's line is that they will keep the fleet flat until he can attain 15% ROIC. NOT that they will keep ASMs exactly the same and reduce the fleet by 5%. Give it a rest, dude. Seriously. All I can say is that thank God that YOU'RE not in charge of anything. Geez, if YOU were in charge of this airline, we'd be using our profits to buy going-out-of-business signs for the big firesale that's obviously just around the corner. Why, I'd bet that even General Lee is thinking right now about you, "man, THAT guy sure is a Southwest hater!"

Indiana Ghetto Jet dude: We're not gonna' furlough, and we're not giving concessions in our Section 6. Feel better now?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

In the past I was just making educated guesses about fleet plan. The company and SWAPA and I would assume ALPA know what the fleet plan is. If you know where to look you can find the same info that I just repeated.

And by "educated guesses," I assume you really mean, "the most pessimistic possible outcome I can describe, even if it means discounting precedent, calling the entire Southwest management team liars, and ignoring what's actually happening around me," then I suppose you may be right.

Bubba

 

[PropPiedmont]

Indiana Ghetto Jet dude: We're not gonna' furlough, and we're not giving concessions in our Section 6. Feel better now?

Bubba

Our concessions usually come in the form of Side Letters after we vote in a new contract. SWAs best tactic, yet a lot of pilots at SWA don't recognize it.