Airtran dropping 121 mins

[jimcav]

I have to disagree with you on your opinion of SWA and AirTran. Unless you have a sweet GIV job or a law degree or mba where are you going to find a better job? Granted the old UAL DAL US or NWA pay scales would be nice but 180,000 (SWA) or 150,000 (AirTran) avg capt salaries to work 14 days a month hardly suck, especially compared to what people in the real world make. Unless you really want out of aviation, thumbing your nose at these companies is foolish. We have a lot of furloughed guys and gals on the property and they are all happy as hell here. Think about it.

 

[TexaSWA]

My point is NOT to demean the caravan time. It is to say that somehow 1000 PIC caravan makes one qualified while 3000 piston twin (say a 402 or pa-31) PIC does NOT is stupid on the face of it.

.

1000 hrs caravan time does not make someone qualified. 10,000 hrs caravan time dose not make someone qualified. As far as caravan time goes a couple hundred is the most you might get "credit" for. 1000hrs. worth and the computer will take your application. Thats about it.

 

[canyonblue]

Pilot B: Instructs for a couple years, then spends a years or two flying a caravan hauling boxes.
1000 SINGLE ENGINE turbine PIC
no jet time
no multi turboprop time

SW says: "Welcome aboard!"

I have yet to meet this fictional pilot. While it could happen technically, I would not bet on it.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Lord knows I learned more about flying on those bad nights back then than you will ever learn in school. It is really unfortunate that a pilot with 1000 pic turbine in the Caribbean is looked upon more favorably than someone with, say 2000 hrs of single pilot IFR in a light twin, especially in a climate where snow and ice is involved.

Preach on Brother... To this day I have never flown in a more demanding environment than my old Ram Air Freight days. Hauling the checks and "piss test samples" up and down the East Coast taught me more than I ever learned at the airlines or Flight Safety.

Freight Dogs put the "Getter-done" into the job!

Vinnie, if your out there somewhere, you still rule the world for de-icing your Cheetah (AA-5A) with coffee from the FBO in Roanoke while the King Air cancelled the trip!!

 

[Lord Wakefield]

I won't argue that going to 3M is cheating yourself, but your assertion about guys getting sent back is ridiculous. To the best of my knowledge, all the GIA pilots that went to AirTran are still there,

Peter Clemmens went back. And EJA sent back a bunch, as did Midway (probably more than any other). Midway even stopped hiring them.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Just curious, do you even have any crew experience in a Part 121 environment? It would seem as if you don't by the statement above!

He flys the whale TK, bow down and recognize his vastly superior flight skills to your own.

These guys that look at time and make the decision soley on that insignificant number are the ones that have serious doubts about there own abilities, just laugh at them and move on, they wont be in the way when it matters.

As far as company mins go, who cares what they are, it's that companies choice to hire who they want, don't like it, start your own airline with your personnal pref. for hiring mins. It is simply a way of weeding through all the apps they get, put a specific number on a specific thing and reduce the number of "qualified" applicants.

The one thing I find laughable is the idea that some have that you have to have been a Capt. in something "smaller" than whatever they are flying to be a "good" FO. Total BS, if that companies training department is worth the glue that is used to hold the carpets down you will be well trained before hitting IOE and if the the IOE Capt. is worth half the weight of the fattest FA on board he will prepare you for the enviroment you fly in. This "aint" rocket science people!

 

[Focus]

Keep on hanging out in the Ocean, flying the Islands DC-8. Nobody needs to bow down to me, I was just trying to answer the ambiguious question of experience. If you really want to put your family behind some FO Jet pilot with no real decision making experience in the real world on a jet have at it. You speak wonders for our community. Yes, I agree its not rocket science but it sure as heck is experience dealing with many variables. Many of those variables will KILL YOU and whoever is behind you no matter how big your craft if not handled correctly....Remember, everyone that has burned one in to the ground did so by not recognizing a mistake in the chain.

So I ask you this; how the hell does a guy recognize when the chains been broken flying at jet speed if hes never seen it before? Lets say he flys by the book which we have to believe hes doing and just gets confused due to lack of decision making experience....This happens to the brightest individuals in the world. The ones that typically make it are the ones that have seen it before at slower speeds....If you cant get this then perhaps it is Rocket Science for you.....Flame ON

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Keep on hanging out in the Ocean, flying the Islands DC-8. Nobody needs to bow down to me, I was just trying to answer the ambiguious question of experience. If you really want to put your family behind some FO Jet pilot with no real decision making experience in the real world on a jet have at it. You speak wonders for our community. Yes, I agree its not rocket science but it sure as heck is experience dealing with many variables. Many of those variables will KILL YOU and whoever is behind you no matter how big your craft if not handled correctly....Remember, everyone that has burned one in to the ground did so by not recognizing a mistake in the chain.

So I ask you this; how the hell does a guy recognize when the chains been broken flying at jet speed if hes never seen it before? Lets say he flys by the book which we have to believe hes doing and just gets confused due to lack of decision making experience....This happens to the brightest individuals in the world. The ones that typically make it are the ones that have seen it before at slower speeds....If you cant get this then perhaps it is Rocket Science for you.....Flame ON

/not flaming

Some of the biggest accidents in the world have been with "high time" people up front, who usually didn't listen to the "low timer" sitting next to them.

Tennarif (sp?) wasn't one of the captains known as MR. 747 for that company?

The DC8 that ran out of fuel going to PDX or SEA, again MR DC8 was the Capt, wouldn't listen to the FO or FE about the fuel status

Delta L1011 (I think) that flew right under a pretty strong Thunderstorm.

The list goes on and on. Of course there is the Pinnacle FL410 adventure that can be directly pointed at experience, but how many more accidents in large jets have been BECAUSE of low time. Not too many, how many have been with high time Captains and or crews up front, a lot more.

Now, how many bad situations have been saved by crews, lots. The Haiwaii flight that lost half its roof, the DC10 in Sioux City, couple of Dash8 hydraulic loss and fires where saved. All done by good pilots with varying levels of experience.

To blatently say someone who has low time is unsafe and has no buisiness in the front end of a jet, just because it goes fast, is stupid. It isnt that hard, when the $hit hits the fan, fly the damn airplane, dont try to be cute.

 

[Focus]

Stupid is as stupid does

Im sure those Captains in the accidents you posted would have done things different given a second chance. Unfortunately, they no longer have that option. Your still missing my point so there really is no reason to continue. Keep flying those Jets for low wages and sooner or later its going to cost XYZ Corp. alot of money in law suits. Im not sure what the lawyers say the going rate of a human life is lately but I bet its alot more money than what their saving with low time pilots. Keep your fingers crossed all the while watching sallaries go down. Stupid is as Stupid does......Its time this industry went back to the way it was when you had to earn the left seat of a jet instead of being the lowest bidder.

 

[rgd]

/not flaming

Some of the biggest accidents in the world have been with "high time" people up front, who usually didn't listen to the "low timer" sitting next to them.

Tennarif (sp?) wasn't one of the captains known as MR. 747 for that company?

The DC8 that ran out of fuel going to PDX or SEA, again MR DC8 was the Capt, wouldn't listen to the FO or FE about the fuel status

Delta L1011 (I think) that flew right under a pretty strong Thunderstorm.

The list goes on and on. Of course there is the Pinnacle FL410 adventure that can be directly pointed at experience, but how many more accidents in large jets have been BECAUSE of low time. Not too many, how many have been with high time Captains and or crews up front, a lot more.

Now, how many bad situations have been saved by crews, lots. The Haiwaii flight that lost half its roof, the DC10 in Sioux City, couple of Dash8 hydraulic loss and fires where saved. All done by good pilots with varying levels of experience.

To blatently say someone who has low time is unsafe and has no buisiness in the front end of a jet, just because it goes fast, is stupid. It isnt that hard, when the $hit hits the fan, fly the dang airplane, dont try to be cute.

You are making some good points, but the accidents your talking about are great examples of the lower time guys NOT speaking up. They are used constantly in CRM classes as great examples of "FO syndrome". They kinda hinted sheepishly, but they didn't jump up and say "DON'T DO IT". Not that having more time might have changed things, but to say they tried to tell the PIC and the PIC just didn't listen is not what happend in those situations.