Airtran dropping 121 mins

[Ty Webb]

What do I want to see in the right seat?

A guy with enough crew time, turbine experience and time spent operating in busy terminal airspace to be a help, not a hindrance.

What do I want to see in the left seat?

A pilot with a decent amount of time making decisions in turbine equipment in busy terminal airspace, and enough time in type to be comfortable in it.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

A lot of Gulfstream International guys went to various carriers including Southwest, JetBlue, AirTran, United, Continental, US Airways, Northwest, and Spirit.

And a lot of them got sent back to GIA from these places with Airtran, EJA, and Midway making the most of their Return to Sender stamps. Most were captains. So much for PIC time... Go to 3M and you only cheat yourself.

 

[Focus]

"To deny experienced pilots with no turbine PIC with lots of jet FO in favor of a low-time cargo dog with a handful of caravan hours is indefensible." Quote from 100LL

In most instances I think the guy flying single pilot hauling cargo at night is going to have the edge on your guy in the right seat of a jet with just FO experience. The cargo pilot is out there five nights a week gettin it on and makin all the decisions. Yea, hes a DOG, but hes livin and scraping on the street while the FO with no PIC experience is sitting in his masters home being fed each leg. My moneys on the street dog...LOL

 

[PCL_128]

And a lot of them got sent back to GIA from these places with Airtran, EJA, and Midway making the most of their Return to Sender stamps. Most were captains. So much for PIC time... Go to 3M and you only cheat yourself.

I won't argue that going to 3M is cheating yourself, but your assertion about guys getting sent back is ridiculous. To the best of my knowledge, all the GIA pilots that went to AirTran are still there, and several of them are Captains now. AirTran has hired quite a few GIA pilots.

 

[tk855]

In most instances I think the guy flying single pilot hauling cargo at night is going to have the edge on your guy in the right seat of a jet with just FO experience. The cargo pilot is out there five nights a week gettin it on and makin all the decisions. Yea, hes a DOG, but hes livin and scraping on the street while the FO with no PIC experience is sitting in his masters home being fed each leg. My moneys on the street dog...LOL

Just curious, do you even have any crew experience in a Part 121 environment? It would seem as if you don't by the statement above!

 

[Focus]

Now thats funny....TK855 IM going to try and help you answer your own question...READ THE CAREER PATH>>>>> hint...you should be able to decipher in the aircraft flown section....SO now what exactly is your point or are you offended by my statement. Dont come out in the street dog, your not ready...

 

[100LL... Again!]

"To deny experienced pilots with no turbine PIC with lots of jet FO in favor of a low-time cargo dog with a handful of caravan hours is indefensible." Quote from 100LL

In most instances I think the guy flying single pilot hauling cargo at night is going to have the edge on your guy in the right seat of a jet with just FO experience. The cargo pilot is out there five nights a week gettin it on and makin all the decisions. Yea, hes a DOG, but hes livin and scraping on the street while the FO with no PIC experience is sitting in his masters home being fed each leg. My moneys on the street dog...LOL

Here's the deal: I WAS that freight dog, and YES, I know what a challenge it is.

BUT, consider the following scenario:

Pilot A: Two years as a freight dog in piston twins. Goes to a regional for a couple of years, then goes to USAir before he upgrades at the regional.
Gets furloughed after a couple years.
1000 piston TWIN PIC
1500 turboprop SIC
200 jet SIC

SW Airlines says: "You're not qualified to fly our airplanes".


Pilot B: Instructs for a couple years, then spends a years or two flying a caravan hauling boxes.
1000 SINGLE ENGINE turbine PIC
no jet time
no multi turboprop time

SW says: "Welcome aboard!"



My point is NOT to demean the caravan time. It is to say that somehow 1000 PIC caravan makes one qualified while 3000 piston twin (say a 402 or pa-31) PIC does NOT is stupid on the face of it.

How is flying a caravan materially different than flying a 402. Yes, the caravan burns kerosine, but the 402 has retractable gear and TWO ENGINES.


These minimums are basically the fetish of whomever makes the rules at that airline. They don't HAVE to make sense.

Fine - they don't even haveto be fair. But please do not PRETEND that something is fair when it is not.

Look at all the 300-hour wonders that went to UAL. Good for them. IF you win the lottery, you are stupid not to collect the money.

BUT, for those 300 hr wonders to imply that it was their superior qualifications that got them the position is an insult to the intelligence of dues-paying aviators everywhere.

I have no problems with unfairness. It is when the unfairness is mislabelled as justice that I get peeved.

 

[Focus]

100LL, Now you make more sense. I wish you the best of luck, try and stay positive as well as energetic. Your time will come. What ever you do keep flying, no matter what type aircraft. Good Luck

 

[100LL... Again!]

I guess I should have made myself more clear. I was never intending to apply for either airtran or swa, so I don't care personally. I just have had a couple of buddies end up on the wrong side of some very arbitrary hiring policies.

I don't really know if I want to go airline again. The profession is in too much decline now.

 

[jimcav]

100LL I couldn't agree more with your opinion on 135 freight. As a former Aztec driver who survived a couple winters in the northeast flyin boxes single pilot I know how you feel. Light twin drivers do not get the respect they deserve when it comes to competitive statistics. A lot more emphasis should be placed on that kind of experience than there is. Lord knows I learned more about flying on those bad nights back then than you will ever learn in school. I have a lot of respect for the mil guys, but the pilots I truly enjoy being around are those with stories to rival or trump my own. I have a buddy at AirTran who flew F14s and did 135 in a Baron for a short time and even he acknowleged how underrated this type of flying is. It is really unfortunate that a pilot with 1000 pic turbine in the Caribbean is looked upon more favorably than someone with, say 2000 hrs of single pilot IFR in a light twin, especially in a climate where snow and ice is involved.

 

[jimcav]

I have to disagree with you on your opinion of SWA and AirTran. Unless you have a sweet GIV job or a law degree or mba where are you going to find a better job? Granted the old UAL DAL US or NWA pay scales would be nice but 180,000 (SWA) or 150,000 (AirTran) avg capt salaries to work 14 days a month hardly suck, especially compared to what people in the real world make. Unless you really want out of aviation, thumbing your nose at these companies is foolish. We have a lot of furloughed guys and gals on the property and they are all happy as hell here. Think about it.

 

[TexaSWA]

My point is NOT to demean the caravan time. It is to say that somehow 1000 PIC caravan makes one qualified while 3000 piston twin (say a 402 or pa-31) PIC does NOT is stupid on the face of it.

.

1000 hrs caravan time does not make someone qualified. 10,000 hrs caravan time dose not make someone qualified. As far as caravan time goes a couple hundred is the most you might get "credit" for. 1000hrs. worth and the computer will take your application. Thats about it.

 

[canyonblue]

Pilot B: Instructs for a couple years, then spends a years or two flying a caravan hauling boxes.
1000 SINGLE ENGINE turbine PIC
no jet time
no multi turboprop time

SW says: "Welcome aboard!"

I have yet to meet this fictional pilot. While it could happen technically, I would not bet on it.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Lord knows I learned more about flying on those bad nights back then than you will ever learn in school. It is really unfortunate that a pilot with 1000 pic turbine in the Caribbean is looked upon more favorably than someone with, say 2000 hrs of single pilot IFR in a light twin, especially in a climate where snow and ice is involved.

Preach on Brother... To this day I have never flown in a more demanding environment than my old Ram Air Freight days. Hauling the checks and "piss test samples" up and down the East Coast taught me more than I ever learned at the airlines or Flight Safety.

Freight Dogs put the "Getter-done" into the job!

Vinnie, if your out there somewhere, you still rule the world for de-icing your Cheetah (AA-5A) with coffee from the FBO in Roanoke while the King Air cancelled the trip!!

 

[Lord Wakefield]

I won't argue that going to 3M is cheating yourself, but your assertion about guys getting sent back is ridiculous. To the best of my knowledge, all the GIA pilots that went to AirTran are still there,

Peter Clemmens went back. And EJA sent back a bunch, as did Midway (probably more than any other). Midway even stopped hiring them.