AirTran cuts 175

[MINIME]

CALPA didn't buy into a bunch of management fear-mongering and concede a key job protection element of their contract, dip-sh!t. Furloughs were going to happen at AirTran if management wanted them, so if they fired the probies during mediated negotiations they would have to reclassify them as furloughed when the NMB dust settled... and flush the retread S-words out of the training department. The company got exactly what they wanted and the pilot group got dick. Again.

NPA, ALPA, IBT, it doesn't matter what initials are on the door of the Union office if the same weakened 'leaders' are running the show. Given the composition of the AirTran pilot group I wouldn't expect any significant improvements, however. I thought that there was reason for hope when Mike Best took over just after I left, but he's having a real hard time making chicken salad out of chicken sh!t.

I'm so disgusted with the company appeasers, you for example, that I could spit. I had the honor to work at several airlines with truly unified pilot groups. Pick up open time with guys on the street or during mediated negotiations? No way. Taking a strike vote? Hells yeah, 97% enough? The company want relief from the contract for some reason? Sure, we're willing to talk - here's our lengthy list of things we want in return. No? OK, we're comfortable with the agreement as written.

To answer your moronic question, Captain Best should have held the line (finally) and told the company that the NPA was happy with the contract language contained in the contract. It would have been the first time in years that the NPA told the company to honor the agreement they signed instead of offering to tickle their balls while they sodomized us. I really have a lot of respect for the AirTran pilots but there are enough freelancing, company-oriented, Kolski KoolAid drinkers there to make true progress impossible. Especially with 170+ of the junior guys soon to hit the street.

Oh. Hi, Mr. Kolski. I thought I smelled sulphur.

Harsh evaluation but perhaps right on. It's my understanding that the new union President is a hard liner that's hated by the company. That should be good for the pilots that want change. It's clear that AAI management is no SWA management.

Perhaps he's surrounded by company sympathizers that will not allow him to impliment his full agenda. Union officials have to be scrutinized before elections. (Food for thought) Since you voted down the last few proposals, ideally, none of your officials should have voted for them either. You elected to recall your old union due to the poor contract they negotiated. In the interest of having a unified vision, not electing officials that voted for it, should've been a priority.

Perhaps none of them voted for it. But if some did, the pilot group should watch them closely. This does not make them bad people. But they could be people who can easily be persuaded by company propaganda. Thus, not always acting in pilot group's best interest.

If negotiations and contract compliance are that bad, your union should be preparing for strike votes. The SPC should be in full force. Afterall, you've been at this for how long now? The threat of firing 177 of your young should be enough motivation.

No disrespect, but even AMR didn't come up with a plan like that. That's not bad on the pilots. But AAI management is worst than I thought. It appears that it doesn't have the union it deserves yet. With that in mind, I doubt Prater could do better. It comes down to your local officials.

 

[Ty Webb]

CALPA didn't buy into a bunch of management fear-mongering and concede a key job protection element of their contract . . . if they fired the probies during mediated negotiations they would have to reclassify them as furloughed when the NMB dust settled... and flush the retread S-words out of the training department. The company got exactly what they wanted and the pilot group got dick. . . . . . . Pick up open time with guys on the street or during mediated negotiations? No way. Taking a strike vote? Hells yeah, 97% enough? The company want relief from the contract for some reason? Sure, we're willing to talk - here's our lengthy list of things we want in return. No? OK, we're comfortable with the agreement as written. . . Captain Best should have held the line (finally) and told the company that the NPA was happy with the contract language contained in the contract. It would have been the first time in years that the NPA told the company to honor the agreement they signed instead of offering to tickle their balls while they sodomized us. . . . .

Geez, did I write this in my sleep? Because I don't remember writing it, but if you put it to music, I could sing it . . . . !

TW

 

[njcapt]

Geez, did I write this in my sleep? Because I don't remember writing it, but if you put it to music, I could sing it . . . . !

TW

Glad you agree, Ty, maybe we should go get a room. The ethical, rational approach for the NPA to take seems obvious to me, but I guess I'm on the fringe. Sorry I'm not around to assist in the good fight.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Bottom Line........NO OPEN TIME PICKUP!!!!!! If you pick up open time the boogey man will visit you in your sleep! NO OPEN TIME PICKUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Removal of all 4 valve stem cores would start as a warning, followed by a good ole tire slash as a second warning would speak volumes to the turd eaters who would step on the backs of their own.
PBR

 

[Britpilot]

I have worked with some cool people here and I have met cool people. There are people like that everywhere, however, fact is fact and Airtran is a 2nd tier company. It may be better than it was but it is still a low on the pecking order. They are not a legacy-like major and the pay is insulting compared to Southwest. Atlanta is the main hub and it is a ghetto airport. The passengers are ghetto. A lot of the F/As are ghetto. A lot of the rest of the employees are from Ga. (nuff said on that). A lot of the Captains are people that were hired before it was a place people tried to go but instead they could not get hired anywhere else. That is the truth. I have flown with many guys who have admitted that Airtran/Valuejet was the company that offered the job. There is no way that a majority of people that were hired in the 7+ year ago range picked this over a legacy. They upgraded in a rather short time and make a good living. I have had people tell me that they know that they will NEVER make this kind of money again if Airtran went away. So they will talk the talk but they will not walk the walk when time comes and that is a major reason why the pilot group lacks the cajones. A good amount of people still live in Atlanta or the southeast region and they are making good money, in their 30s and 40s, are above reserve levels, and have workable schedules. They will pick up open time, agree to management abuse, and accept this white trash/ghetto airline style because they have a lot to lose. Most pilots cannot do anything else. It is called a white collar job but really it is a blue collar task that wear a white shirt. It is more like a gray collar job. This is a self-loving, self-serving, "all about me" society. This is what we know. I do not blame people for being the way they are but it is what it is. This country has not been united since the Boston Tea Party.

Please quit. There are 175 pilots who want your job.

 

[McNugget]

I have worked with some cool people here and I have met cool people. There are people like that everywhere, however, fact is fact and Airtran is a 2nd tier company. It may be better than it was but it is still a low on the pecking order. They are not a legacy-like major and the pay is insulting compared to Southwest. Atlanta is the main hub and it is a ghetto airport. The passengers are ghetto. A lot of the F/As are ghetto. A lot of the rest of the employees are from Ga. (nuff said on that). A lot of the Captains are people that were hired before it was a place people tried to go but instead they could not get hired anywhere else. That is the truth. I have flown with many guys who have admitted that Airtran/Valuejet was the company that offered the job. There is no way that a majority of people that were hired in the 7+ year ago range picked this over a legacy. They upgraded in a rather short time and make a good living. I have had people tell me that they know that they will NEVER make this kind of money again if Airtran went away. So they will talk the talk but they will not walk the walk when time comes and that is a major reason why the pilot group lacks the cajones. A good amount of people still live in Atlanta or the southeast region and they are making good money, in their 30s and 40s, are above reserve levels, and have workable schedules. They will pick up open time, agree to management abuse, and accept this white trash/ghetto airline style because they have a lot to lose. Most pilots cannot do anything else. It is called a white collar job but really it is a blue collar task that wear a white shirt. It is more like a gray collar job. This is a self-loving, self-serving, "all about me" society. This is what we know. I do not blame people for being the way they are but it is what it is. This country has not been united since the Boston Tea Party.

Well-said!

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Please quit. There are 175 pilots who want your job.

Make that 174 (actually I have talked to many so that number might be less) that want your job. I was actually more worried I would not be furloughed. This is a completely different company than I thought I applied too. A crap contract, weak MEC, abusive management are more than I could take being the very bottom of the seniority list. I have a feeling that this employee group is going to pick up as much open time as it is given while us guys are on the street. Look at some of the damn lines for Sept., over 100 hours!!

 

[twepilot]

THEN EFFING QUIT if you are so unhappy with everything around you. Put your money where your mouth is you freakin puss.

RV

 

[Secret Squirrel]

THEN EFFING QUIT if you are so unhappy with everything around you. Put your money where your mouth is you freakin puss.

RV

On the street as of next month. Have you not been paying attention to what is going on? So you will not have to worry about me trying to point out the obvious. I guess you could just live in denial that everything is all right. And that is a good strategy. Direct all your anger at me and not at the problems at hand. That will accomplish everything the company is looking for. If this pilot group does not get motivated then it will never be able to stand up to this management.

 

[Britpilot]

On the street as of next month. Have you not been paying attention to what is going on? So you will not have to worry about me trying to point out the obvious. I guess you could just live in denial that everything is all right. And that is a good strategy. Direct all your anger at me and not at the problems at hand. That will accomplish everything the company is looking for. If this pilot group does not get motivated then it will never be able to stand up to this management.

I am sorry that you are getting furloughed, however from your statements it appears that you did not like it here anyway so I guess that it is no loss for you.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I am sorry that you are getting furloughed, however from your statements it appears that you did not like it here anyway so I guess that it is no loss for you.

The job was fine. The pilots I flew with were all good guys. I could have easily seen myself flying here for the rest of my career. My problem is that I think it is too risky. I have never seen a management so aggressive towards an employee group. Terminations (and attempted terminations) for no reason to try an intimidate the pilot group. Blatant violations of the contract. And the problem with this is the Union is so unorganized and does not have the resources to fight it. There are some very vocal opponents to ALPA and I don't see it coming on property. If they are trying to fire the guy that brought MEMRAT I can only imagine what the company would try to do to the guy that starts the ALPA petition. And the problem of that is that the union is not fighting to get these guys who fight for the employee group back. The BOD has in the past voted to not represent terminated employees. We came from the same company to here, do you remember some of the guys that ALPA got back on property? That is a testemant to the power and resources that a good MEC has with the support of ALPA. We are not even fighting to get two guys back who only wanted the best for this employee group. So who is going to stick their necks out here?

OK, maybe my posts were especially negative, I am quite negative right now. Sorry if I offended anybody. But I am finding it very hard to want to come back here and betting my next 25 year career on this management and union. Good luck to all you guys who stay. It will be a tough couple years for you if you try to make things better. It will be very easy to cower and allow the company to walk all over you. As somebody who is on the street I will try to keep my mudslinging to a minimum.

 

[T3700]

The guys getting furloughed have every right to be upset with the way management treated them. And to be honest, anyone that has been at AirTran for less than three years has never seen the Union accomplish anything to the benefit of the pilot group. To tell those folks "good riddance, if you don't like it here why don't you just quit?" Is not being fair. This is like some of our senior Capts telling FO's "you knew what the FO pay scale was when you started here, you have no right to complain" If anyone has the right to complain about AirTran it is our two hostages and those about to be furloughed!

 

[Britpilot]

We came from the same company to here, do you remember some of the guys that ALPA got back on property? That is a testemant to the power and resources that a good MEC has with the support of ALPA. We are not even fighting to get two guys back who only wanted the best for this employee group.

I do remember the guys who were terminated and did get the jobs back. It really was not ALPA who did that but a few guys within the union who stuck their necks out for them. I was involved in one of the cases and can say that ALPA was not involved in that one.
The NPA is trying to get our two guys reinstated and have stated so on several occasions so I think you're wrong on that one.
Good luck where ever you go, let me know if I can help.

 

[Ty Webb]

The NPA is trying to get our two guys reinstated and have stated so on several occasions so I think you're wrong on that one.
.

The NPA "states" that they are, but results are what counts, and the results are very clear. They (NPA) have placed these pilots on the back burner, in order to achieve other goals (clearing backlogs of minor grievances).
It should have been made clear to Management that there would be NO LOA'S, and NO consideration of concessions until these guys were both back on the property. Period.
Not standing up to this management team has emboldened them, and now they are harassing and intimidating other pilots. So, no, the NPA is not pursuing the right course, and a large number of the Membership has noticed.
TW

 

[Britpilot]

The NPA "states" that they are, but results are what counts, and the results are very clear. They (NPA) have placed these pilots on the back burner, in order to achieve other goals (clearing backlogs of minor grievances).
It should have been made clear to Management that there would be NO LOA'S, and NO consideration of concessions until these guys were both back on the property. Period.
Not standing up to this management team has emboldened them, and now they are harassing and intimidating other pilots. So, no, the NPA is not pursuing the right course, and a large number of the Membership has noticed.
TW

No argument from me on all of that. I just repeated what the NPA has previously stated.

 

[Mongolikecandy]

Sorry to steer the thread back on topic but...
I keep hearing senior people say they think this whole furlough thing is just a ploy by management. If it is a bluff, well done. It certainly looks like I, and 174 of my brothers and sisters, will be looking for work next month.
What are the chances with oil down below $112 (today) that we won't hit the street?

 

[Captain Jeff]

I really do wish you the best, but 10 years ago they furloughed like 40 guys for like 3 weeks or something like that. I would expect sometime off.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I do remember the guys who were terminated and did get the jobs back. It really was not ALPA who did that but a few guys within the union who stuck their necks out for them. I was involved in one of the cases and can say that ALPA was not involved in that one.
The NPA is trying to get our two guys reinstated and have stated so on several occasions so I think you're wrong on that one.
Good luck where ever you go, let me know if I can help.

But who is willing to stick their neck out here? The guys who have done it have had their head cut off and the union has done nothing but continue to give in to the companies demands. I agree that the MEC and the pilots are what makes a union but ALPA brings organization, support, lawyers and assistance in giving us direction. I remember our union saying that contract 04 was because of all the resources available to them by ALPA, but not necessarily because of ALPA. Unfortunately it will be a painful process for this employee group to resolve some of these problems. I will you all the best and hope you make the right decisions.

 

[Flyer1015]

Bottom Line........NO OPEN TIME PICKUP!!!!!! If you pick up open time the boogey man will visit you in your sleep! NO OPEN TIME PICKUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen to that! Grow a spine people, and don't pick up open time when your fellow pilots are furloughed out on the street.

 

[Sunking]

Sorry to steer the thread back on topic but...
I keep hearing senior people say they think this whole furlough thing is just a ploy by management. If it is a bluff, well done. It certainly looks like I, and 174 of my brothers and sisters, will be looking for work next month.
What are the chances with oil down below $112 (today) that we won't hit the street?

According to Chief FP oil could drop below 60 a barrel and the furlough still cometh because the 7 aircraft have already been sold. That being said BF told NPA that they are currently in talks with Boeing on Midex's &717s . Did not mention the amount except it wasn't 24, whatever that means. I'd like to see a ray of hope in that BF has seen the mistake of sell,sell,sell and the purchase of a few 717s can be a short term fix so to speak. In either case good luck to all, no favors, no overtime until all you good folks are on the payroll!