Airtran and their "500 PIC part 121" requirement?

[Ty Webb]

I've done 135 training at both of those facilities as well in accordance to company Ops Specs, FOM, and SOP's. I never felt too much pressure. Maybe it was because I actually studied.

The training I did there (FSI and SImuflite) was for 135 PIC training . . . . FSI and Simuflite may have copies of your company's Ops Specs and checklists, but they do not try to build scenarios on your ride that require decisions based upon your company Ops Specs or SOP's.

Under 61 or 142, there are different ways to do the same thing. At most airlines, there is only one way- their way. If they say you will use "level change" instead of "altitude intervention" you better be using "level change", or it's wrong.

Also, unless things have really changed, FSI wasn't doing too much with the FMS boxes- while some of the "boxwork" I had to do on my 737NG ride would make your head spin.

Nobody is saying that 135 flying is easier . . . or harder. It's just a different set of "gotcha's", and I agree that we may not be getting the best suited pilots by sticking to 121 PIC's, but to say that a person who got a type in a new plane at FSI is a better candidate- well, that's about as silly as me saying that the best 135 guy would be a 121 Capt. . . . .

 

[capt_zman]

It's downright discriminatory. I personally don't give a hoot about AirTran, but it really irks me that I can't even apply because my career path, not my experience, doesn't meet their requirements.

Overall it's an easy solution for me, my family and I just choose not to fly AirTran.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

I personally don't give a hoot about AirTran, but it really irks me that I can't even apply because my career path, not my experience, doesn't meet their requirements.

Overall it's an easy solution for me, my family and I just choose not to fly AirTran.

It's obvious that you really DO "give a hoot" about Air Tran, even though you pretend not to. You "give a hoot" enough that their minimums policy "really irks" you, and you "give a hoot" enough that your family "choose not to fly Air Tran".

So, if you really didn't "give a hoot", then you wouldn't care enough to give it a second thought.

However, what I am sure about is that Air Tran really DOESN'T "give a hoot" that you and your family choose not to fly them over the fact that their policy "really irks" you.

 

[pilotyip]

No degee required

Air Tran will hire you without a degree, but not without 121 PIC. Goes back to TJ PIC gets you the job. Our experience in hiring follows the same thoughts. The failure rate for former military or 121 pilots is less than 1/2 that of part 91/135 world.

 

[capt_zman]

No, I don't "give a hoot" about airtran. I'll waste a synapse or two every now and then when I see threads that talk about it, but thats all.

The only "obvious" thing to me is that airtran is a 2nd rate airline "pretending" to be a 1st rate airline.

 

[FLB717]

Much like I pretend to care what you think.

 

[sgu]

No, I don't "give a hoot" about airtran. I'll waste a synapse or two every now and then when I see threads that talk about it, but thats all.

The only "obvious" thing to me is that airtran is a 2nd rate airline "pretending" to be a 1st rate airline.

No need to start calling names...it is just business...

 

[135fr8r]

It still makes no sense. Four years ago the regionals were hiring 500 hour flight instructors. Who knows why? Apparently teaching stalls and staying in the pattern prepares an individual to fly a 50 pax jet for below min wage. You didn't see those job ads screaming "previous 135 and /or jet experience preferred".

I flew 135 for 3 years, and had to learn the system, regs, etc... Why the Hell do these people seem to think non 121 guys can't learn to operate in a 121 environment.

Military equivalent?
How is the military life of any comparison to 121 flying?

 

[pilotyip]

Military equivalent?

Military equivalent? How is the military life of any comparison to 121 flying? The military pilot like the 121 pilot is trained to specific crewmember seat dependant duties, checklist standardization, crew interaction decision making. Our insurance company requires two year of two man military cockpit experience or two years 121 cockpit experience to meet DC-9 Captain insurance requirements. So there must be a connection in someone mind.

 

[capt_zman]

Yip,

At your operation, you can get 2 years of 121 time while working as an FO for the company to upgrade as a Captain on the DC9. That is valuable experience to have and I agree with that premise.

Airtran's policy is discriminatory because it says you have to possess 500 hours of 121 PIC time to be eligible for an FO position at a 121 airline. Big difference here. For example, a furloughed multi-year 121 FO (say USAir for example) who does not possess the 121 PIC time, can't apply to airtran, but could be captain eligible on your DC9 right now.

It is just so ridiculous to think, especially with all of the furloughed pilots out there, that just because you don't have 500 hours of 121 PIC time or military time, you can't be trained or are statistically less capable of passing training, for the Airtran operation. Last I checked, the furloughed pilot had to pass their past employers 121 training regimen.

I know guys with thousands of hours of flying heavy iron (75's, 73's, 76's, 74's, etc.), who can't apply. That is simply the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard of and would welcome anyone's argument as to why that is.

 

[135fr8r]

Hey Yip,


As far as insurance goes maybe you should call Geico.

When I was 135, we were trained to specific crewmember seat duties, checklist standars, etc...... What's your point.

Oh yea, unlike military, we didn't stay in the pattern all day long shooting landings.

 

[Yahtzee]

Airtran's requirement and SWA's requirement for PIC time (500 & 1000) are purely, as said before, a process to eliminate thousands more resume's from showing up at headquarters. The sad thing is, they are eliminating pilots that are already qualified in the 737NG, like myself for instance.

I did upgrade at my former employer, a regional 121 company, and accumulated 400 PIC Turbine. I was then offered another job, which I accepted flying the 737NG. So, here I am with over 1000 hours in the right seat of the 73, yet I'm "not qualified" to fly the same airplane for SWA...or Airtran. If these airlines think that training from scratch a BE 1900 Capt. versus throwing me in the seat to do what I already do everyday with ease, then it's their loss. Not saying that I DESERVE the job, I will say that I should be at least able to be in the running. Unfortunatly, my resume would go straight to the shredder. It simply doesn't make any sense......I know that's the way it goes, I'm just throwing out an example of poor hiring practice.

DBCooper,

I know this doesn't help make you feel any better considering your time in the right seat of a 737, but like others have written before me, companies have placed a threshold of X to be considered and X+Y to be competitive for an interview considering the shear number of pilots to choose from in today's environment.

In the case of SWA, they require 1000 hours Turbine PIC as a min to apply. To them 1000 hours Turbine PIC is more important than having X hours in 737. Logging time in the right seat proves one is competent at your duties in the right seat and gives you the opportunity to watch, learn and grow before moving to the left seat. Logging PIC (whether in a B-1900, a C-5 or a 737) proves the ability to upgrade. Logging 1000 hours Turbine PIC gives the applicant time to see many situations (low fuel, bad weather, EPs, etc.) while in command, making decisions and honing skills (both flying and people) regarding those situations. Logging 1000 Turbine PIC is the min to apply at SWA, but it doesn't necessarily make one competitive to get an interview.

And while one may think SWA has poor hiring practices simply because they are not eligible to apply or they get turned down after an interview, you have to admit the company has been profitable for a long time (and hopefully will remain so for many years to come.) Sure some great people get turned down during an interview, and sure some folks get through the process, and others wonder "How did s/he get here?", but overall the SWA formula works for them.

SWA provides the same training to a a former BE-1900 pilot that they provide to a guy with 5000 hours in a 737. For them they don't care what you flew as long as you have 1000 Turbine PIC and meet their other mins. SWA interviews based on qualifications but hire for very different reasons. Being the most qualified and experienced pilot in the world may get you the interview, but it has little if anything to do with getting your foot in the door (and keeping it there.)

You may not agree with my comments, but I want to offer a different perspective. I hope you get the extra 600 hours Turbine PIC you need in the near future if you really want to be a part of SWA. And I hope you don't take my ramblings as a lecture as they weren't meant that way, but rather a way to clear up why they might do things differently. Trust me...it's not to keep DBCooper down.

Best Wishes in your endeavors.

Yahtz

 

[Yahtzee]

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Yahtz

 

[Mooseflyer]

.....

 

[Mooseflyer]

Oh yea, unlike military, we didn't stay in the pattern all day long shooting landings.

You're right - rarely do we military types go very far from the pattern. Maybe 12,000-13,000 miles, TOPS.

 

[BSkin]

Hey Yip,


As far as insurance goes maybe you should call Geico.

When I was 135, we were trained to specific crewmember seat duties, checklist standars, etc...... What's your point.

Oh yea, unlike military, we didn't stay in the pattern all day long shooting landings.

You are nothing but a moron with that type of thinking!!!

 

[pilotyip]

They are hiring prospective Captains

This did not start with 500 121 PIC until after 9-11 when they became one of the only jobs in town. They could set any standards they wanted. Before 9-11 3000 TT would get you an interview, now I understand 5000 TT barely gets your foot in the door. Back to the 135 flight time, there are tons of very good 135 operators out there and there pilots are excellent pilots. However there are lots of 135 operators on the other end of the scale. 135 does not produce the uniform product like 121 and the miltary. Why do they do it, because they can.

 

[Bandit60]

The training I did there (FSI and SImuflite) was for 135 PIC training . . . . FSI and Simuflite may have copies of your company's Ops Specs and checklists, but they do not try to build scenarios on your ride that require decisions based upon your company Ops Specs or SOP's.

Under 61 or 142, there are different ways to do the same thing. At most airlines, there is only one way- their way. If they say you will use "level change" instead of "altitude intervention" you better be using "level change", or it's wrong.

Also, unless things have really changed, FSI wasn't doing too much with the FMS boxes- while some of the "boxwork" I had to do on my 737NG ride would make your head spin.

Nobody is saying that 135 flying is easier . . . or harder. It's just a different set of "gotcha's", and I agree that we may not be getting the best suited pilots by sticking to 121 PIC's, but to say that a person who got a type in a new plane at FSI is a better candidate- well, that's about as silly as me saying that the best 135 guy would be a 121 Capt. . . . .

I think FSI has changed as far as training with the "box". I don't know what type of aircraft you flew at FSI but the ones I fly require a great knowledge of the box. We shoot every approach with the box (expect ILS wish is required to fly by loc frequency). Most of our performace numbers are generated by the box. I think the the "box" was 75% of the training.

 

[BRA]

"If these airlines think that training from scratch a BE 1900 Capt. versus throwing me in the seat to do what I already do everyday with ease, then it's their loss."

As a 1900 captain....i always find myself at the bottom of the industry in these threads. Can't we use J-31 drivers or something as the bottom for the next few months to keep me sane?

 

[DBCOOPER]

Yahtzee,

You make points that I understand fully. I know that 1,000 PIC is a good thing to have. As far as being able to upgrade - dealing with bad weather, fuel, making sure alternates are legal, etc....I did that on a regular occasion as a Captain back in the Northeast. I also know that although I didn't stay long enough to accumulate the full 1,000, I could have flown a few months longer there....it wouldn't have made a bit of difference experience wise in the end. Hell, where I work now I should be logging PIC half the time anyway....watching some of these "Captains" I fly with I know a guy that started working for SWA recently. He had PIC 121 on a BE-1900, but only flying in Florida...mainly VFR, and no exposure to anything else. Don't get me wrong here, I'm very happy for him, but I just don't see why he should have a chance to work for SWA and someone like me doesn't. Like many others, I've flown all over the U.S., Canada, Trans-Pacific, and South Pacific. I've shown that I am capable of upgrading at a 121 Regional in the Northeast quadrant (probably one of the most challenging sectors to fly in) ---- I'm not trying to toot my own horn, b/c there are many with more qualifications than me i know, but the fact that I simply can not even apply is ludicrous. I'm just hoping that the upgrade at my current employer comes sometime soon, so that I can get my free 737 type .....and finish off the PIC requirement that way.

Gotta play the game in this industry I know, no matter how rediculous it can be sometimes. Happy Thanksgiving to all.........