Airtran and their "500 PIC part 121" requirement?

[reepicheep]

Is AirTrans' Part 121 requirement any more unfair or unreasonsable than all the corporate operators out there who specify "prior corporate pilot experience a must"?

 

[English]

reepicheep,


The difference is that most corporate operators don't require 500 hours of PIC in a corporate jet, unless the opening is for a captain position.

AirTran is not hiring captains off the street.

 

[reepicheep]

No, but these days many want a type rating and time in type, which is also pretty problematical for most folks - what would the price tag be to buy a type and 50 hours in say, a Citation X? Probably well over 100 grand.

Anyway, IMO what all this boils down to is an attempt to reduce the workload on the HR department by setting the bar high enough to disqualify most applicant. The same way airlines like Alaska and UPS mostly hire only those applicants who come highly recommended by current employees of the company. They can narrow down their stack of resumes from 10,000 down to a more manageable number. With 8,000 furloughed airline pilots out there chasing an aggregate of a few classes a month among all hiring carriers, I think they can all pretty much do what they want right now.

 

[Swerpipe]

Exactly the same...

Is AirTrans' Part 121 requirement any more unfair or unreasonsable than all the corporate operators out there who specify "prior corporate pilot experience a must"?

Not at all. I work in the 135 world and I have seen the same jerk attitude towards military pilots (those guys are really rough pilots) and airlines pilots (those guys have attitude problems). Every individual is different and must be evaluated as such.

Yes, you do do those jobs and I know that in 135 it is a difficult world. Part 121 is about working with others to get the job done. In 135 if you want to add more fuel, you do. (generally) In 121, you need usually need dispatcher approval and sometimes they don't want to give it. How will you work that out? What if the 2nd FA is whining and complaining because he feels the 3rd FA "disrespected" him? How will you work that out?"

Now, this is a really silly and dumb argument. How is an F-16 pilot capable to deal with dispatchers or flight attendants any better than us sir? Yeah, just what I thought. BTW, anyone with the necessary flight experience and people skills is more than qualified to do the job. "In 121, you need usually approval and sometimes they don't want to give it..." Ha ha ha. Now that would be the end of the World wouldn't it?
"What if the 2nd FA is whining and complaining because he feels the 3rd FA disrespected him?" Well, in this case I would ask the F-16 pilot, now the captain, "hey how did you use to handle those FAs fueling your squadron?"

Silly argument. Airtran can do as they wish. There is no logic other than their contention than folks from the 135/91 world had problems in their training but come to think of it, their failure rate was fairly high according to their own pilots so maybe pilots from all backgrounds are substandard, in which case, maybe they shouldn't hire anyone. Maybe is just their hiring and training process that needs to be looked at.

 

[sleepy]

Sleepy, is that you?

Yes, I'm just not feeling like my old self today. I shouldn't have opened up this can of worms, but you cannot deny that the Airtran policy will make it even more difficult to recruit minority and female pilots. There are still minority pilots out there that meet this 500 hours Part 121 PIC requirement, but I am willing to bet that it is a pretty small group.

Does Airtran make an exception to the 500 hours Part 121 PIC requirement for women and minorities (or the children of current employees)?

 

[FLB717]

Jes0s Fn Crip,
Can you people find anything to else to do! SWA requiers at type to get the job. We want 500 PIC 121. A company can hire by any standart they want based on the number of people that want to apply. Here's a new flash LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Ask a furloughed USAir or DAL pilot if he or she feels like life is fair. And some want to bitch about a 500 PIC.Even the RJ guys want jet time to get a job. 6000 people are out of work and looking for a job and my HR department should just take anyone. And just for the info I could't get hired here based on the new 500 pre-req. I got hired at a different time. It will change again when the job market changes. I for one am happy that some places have not started the PFT crap again.

 

[Meathead]

Dear Ty Webb – I found your post truly inspiring. In my estimate, this forum is to exchange useful info to assist those of us who have not scored our dream job yet. If anything productive or useful came from your post, I don’t know what it was. We wouldn’t have found it satisfying if George W. Bush himself had come up with AirTrans mindless minimums (in other words, I wasn’t impressed by ‘VP of Flight Operations’). May I suggest that you start your own thread titled ‘Pompous, Condescending Blather for those who care what Ty Webb thinks’?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

If that's a reference to whom I think it is....

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

What about the CEO's daughter!

CEO's daughter was hired from American Eagle where she was a captain for a few years.



Freddie Spencer, dude, how low can you get? I think you went thru the bottom.

 

[SWA/FO]

Oh, great now you need 500 PIC 121 to work for AirTran? Next they will require a 25 dollar application fee and type ratings in the 717 & 737.

 

[jetdawg]

I know of only one airline that requires a type. Not sure who, but I am sure a search on this site I could find out. We require qualified or in my eyes more than qualified pilots, sex means nothing to airltran (at least for the hiring phase).

Like I mentioned earlier not sure if I agree with it but those are the requirements.

 

[FLB717]

SWA/FO
How much did you have to pay to get your type at SWA. Then again maybe you didn't have to write a 7K check but many have. Ever heard about stones and glass houses? I normaly like and respect your posts, but not this time. You and I don't set the minimums at either of our airlines so lets not sit here and act as if we do. I have pleanty of friends who I would like to get hired here that don't have the full or even any 121 PIC. But I get very tired of the BS from those who have requierment that make no sense (SWA) and still feel all important to cast a shadow.

 

[-9Capt]

Oh, great now you need 500 PIC 121 to work for AirTran? Next they will require a 25 dollar application fee and type ratings in the 717 & 737.

FLB, I think he was being sarcastic. I thought it was kinda funny.

 

[Ty Webb]

Maybe they are using the 500 hours Part 121 requirement as a back-door way to keep women and minority pilots out of Airtran. Given the low numbers of both in this industry, the 500 hours of Part 121 PIC could make it even more difficult for women and minorities to apply. I fly on Airtran 3 or 4 times a month, and I have never seen either in the cockpit.

Sorry to blow your theory to he11, there, Sleepy, but I have seen more minority and women pilots hired here SINCE they instituted the requirement than before.

And, to the rest of the people following this string- almost every airline you can anme has a corporate culture and most of the pilots that are hired there reflect that culture, whether it be Navy at Delta, Midwesterners at Midwest, 737-typed pilots at SWA, or bed-wetting interns at UAL. Apparently, our DO has decided for whatever reason that 121 PIC's seems to have the most success here as newhires and as uprading Captains, and in this market, he has been able to adjust the minimums to reflect that opinion.

Do I agree with it? No, I don't, but the way some of you guys respond to this requirement leaves little doubt that you wouldn't be happy here, anyway, so let's not worry about it. Have a nice day, OK?

 

[135fr8r]

I see part 91 corporate guys with zero experience in type, passing the initial type ride(on any a/c) at flight safety, or simulfite on the first go as being some of the best candidates for initial training.

 

[Ty Webb]

Having done both, I can tell you that there is a world of difference between 121 training and 142 training. At Flight Safety and Simuflite, you are the customer, and they are tasked with getting you through.

At a 121 airline, you are an employee, and the burden is on you to get through. Much, much more pressure. Plus, for a PArt 61 or 142 type, you only have to pass the required maneuvers. On a 121 ride, you have to do it in accordance with your company SOP's, FOM, and Ops Specs.

 

[135fr8r]

I've done 135 training at both of those facilities as well in accordance to company Ops Specs, FOM, and SOP's. I never felt too much pressure. Maybe it was because I actually studied.

 

[Bandit60]

The ironic thing is that I have friends that were ex-twa pilots (fo's)with over ten thousand hours of total time with tons of pic jet but were only fo's at the airline so they didnt get pic121 time.

It is actually the airlines loss on these guys that I know perosnally. They are some of the best pilots and people I know.

 

[DBCOOPER]

Airtran's requirement and SWA's requirement for PIC time (500 & 1000) are purely, as said before, a process to eliminate thousands more resume's from showing up at headquarters. The sad thing is, they are eliminating pilots that are already qualified in the 737NG, like myself for instance.

I did upgrade at my former employer, a regional 121 company, and accumulated 400 PIC Turbine. I was then offered another job, which I accepted flying the 737NG. So, here I am with over 1000 hours in the right seat of the 73, yet I'm "not qualified" to fly the same airplane for SWA...or Airtran. If these airlines think that training from scratch a BE 1900 Capt. versus throwing me in the seat to do what I already do everyday with ease, then it's their loss. Not saying that I DESERVE the job, I will say that I should be atleast able to be in the running. Unfortunatly, my resume would go straight to the shredder. It simply doesn't make any sense......I know that's the way it goes, I'm just throwing out an example of poor hiring practice.

 

[sgu]

I hear ya. It is a tough market, Air Tran and other companies can afford to call the shots. Good luck to you.

 

[Ty Webb]

I've done 135 training at both of those facilities as well in accordance to company Ops Specs, FOM, and SOP's. I never felt too much pressure. Maybe it was because I actually studied.

The training I did there (FSI and SImuflite) was for 135 PIC training . . . . FSI and Simuflite may have copies of your company's Ops Specs and checklists, but they do not try to build scenarios on your ride that require decisions based upon your company Ops Specs or SOP's.

Under 61 or 142, there are different ways to do the same thing. At most airlines, there is only one way- their way. If they say you will use "level change" instead of "altitude intervention" you better be using "level change", or it's wrong.

Also, unless things have really changed, FSI wasn't doing too much with the FMS boxes- while some of the "boxwork" I had to do on my 737NG ride would make your head spin.

Nobody is saying that 135 flying is easier . . . or harder. It's just a different set of "gotcha's", and I agree that we may not be getting the best suited pilots by sticking to 121 PIC's, but to say that a person who got a type in a new plane at FSI is a better candidate- well, that's about as silly as me saying that the best 135 guy would be a 121 Capt. . . . .

 

[capt_zman]

It's downright discriminatory. I personally don't give a hoot about AirTran, but it really irks me that I can't even apply because my career path, not my experience, doesn't meet their requirements.

Overall it's an easy solution for me, my family and I just choose not to fly AirTran.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

I personally don't give a hoot about AirTran, but it really irks me that I can't even apply because my career path, not my experience, doesn't meet their requirements.

Overall it's an easy solution for me, my family and I just choose not to fly AirTran.

It's obvious that you really DO "give a hoot" about Air Tran, even though you pretend not to. You "give a hoot" enough that their minimums policy "really irks" you, and you "give a hoot" enough that your family "choose not to fly Air Tran".

So, if you really didn't "give a hoot", then you wouldn't care enough to give it a second thought.

However, what I am sure about is that Air Tran really DOESN'T "give a hoot" that you and your family choose not to fly them over the fact that their policy "really irks" you.

 

[pilotyip]

No degee required

Air Tran will hire you without a degree, but not without 121 PIC. Goes back to TJ PIC gets you the job. Our experience in hiring follows the same thoughts. The failure rate for former military or 121 pilots is less than 1/2 that of part 91/135 world.

 

[capt_zman]

No, I don't "give a hoot" about airtran. I'll waste a synapse or two every now and then when I see threads that talk about it, but thats all.

The only "obvious" thing to me is that airtran is a 2nd rate airline "pretending" to be a 1st rate airline.

 

[FLB717]

Much like I pretend to care what you think.

 

[sgu]

No, I don't "give a hoot" about airtran. I'll waste a synapse or two every now and then when I see threads that talk about it, but thats all.

The only "obvious" thing to me is that airtran is a 2nd rate airline "pretending" to be a 1st rate airline.

No need to start calling names...it is just business...

 

[135fr8r]

It still makes no sense. Four years ago the regionals were hiring 500 hour flight instructors. Who knows why? Apparently teaching stalls and staying in the pattern prepares an individual to fly a 50 pax jet for below min wage. You didn't see those job ads screaming "previous 135 and /or jet experience preferred".

I flew 135 for 3 years, and had to learn the system, regs, etc... Why the Hell do these people seem to think non 121 guys can't learn to operate in a 121 environment.

Military equivalent?
How is the military life of any comparison to 121 flying?

 

[pilotyip]

Military equivalent?

Military equivalent? How is the military life of any comparison to 121 flying? The military pilot like the 121 pilot is trained to specific crewmember seat dependant duties, checklist standardization, crew interaction decision making. Our insurance company requires two year of two man military cockpit experience or two years 121 cockpit experience to meet DC-9 Captain insurance requirements. So there must be a connection in someone mind.

 

[capt_zman]

Yip,

At your operation, you can get 2 years of 121 time while working as an FO for the company to upgrade as a Captain on the DC9. That is valuable experience to have and I agree with that premise.

Airtran's policy is discriminatory because it says you have to possess 500 hours of 121 PIC time to be eligible for an FO position at a 121 airline. Big difference here. For example, a furloughed multi-year 121 FO (say USAir for example) who does not possess the 121 PIC time, can't apply to airtran, but could be captain eligible on your DC9 right now.

It is just so ridiculous to think, especially with all of the furloughed pilots out there, that just because you don't have 500 hours of 121 PIC time or military time, you can't be trained or are statistically less capable of passing training, for the Airtran operation. Last I checked, the furloughed pilot had to pass their past employers 121 training regimen.

I know guys with thousands of hours of flying heavy iron (75's, 73's, 76's, 74's, etc.), who can't apply. That is simply the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard of and would welcome anyone's argument as to why that is.