Airtran=alpa!!!! The Time Is Now

[STL717]

You AirTran pilots need a little lesson.

The letters that make up you union has nothing to do with your strength. NPA, ALPA or APC, it doesn’t matter. Your strength comes from within. Each and every one of you AirTran pilots makes your union strong or weak. Collectively as a group your actions and more importantly, inactions determine your strength as a pilot union and thus your destiny. Apathy is your enemy.

You are not management and thus have no control how the airline navigates through this difficult time. You do have control over how management treats you as a group.

Maybe it’s time you as an individual stepped up to the bar and became more involved in the union. A unified pilot group is a strong pilot group.

(APC- AirTran Pilot Coalition)

 

[CoolSidePillow]

NO ALPA!!!

Just shut those holes in your faces.

 

[ASADriver]

Lets be real about this. Management played a hand of poker and won. What exactly was GAINED by this last LOA, Please tell. Management gave exactly what they wanted us have. The retired guys still in the training dept. A bunch of the company may's and that is it. I think it is time for the backing of a national union. How do you think it looks with what happened yesterday. The NPA is the laughing stock amid management. When you log into the NPA website you have a 3 page letter about the MEMRAT and nothing about the furloughs or displacement bid that came out today, or what does TBD "we will let you know your status in a few weeks" deal. What does that mean? The union leaders should be all over this and posting something immediately. Hello !!!!!!

Why did you even leave ASA? You had a good gig over here.

 

[ASADriver]

We need more details on the police coming to the union hall. What happened?

 

[jehtplane]

Why did you even leave ASA? You had a good gig over here.

Hows oakland?

 

[bladeusa]

Regardless of the letters behind it, a union is only as strong as its members.. and no union is perfect. However, after being a member of both alpa and the npa, i honestly feel alpa would be better than what we have. The people we are up against have been doing this along time. I think our guys try to the best of their abilities, but we need the stronger support and resources.
If there is yet another petition to sign, im willing.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

You AirTran pilots need a little lesson.

The letters that make up you union has nothing to do with your strength. NPA, ALPA or APC, it doesn’t matter. Your strength comes from within. Each and every one of you AirTran pilots makes your union strong or weak. Collectively as a group your actions and more importantly, inactions determine your strength as a pilot union and thus your destiny. Apathy is your enemy.

You are not management and thus have no control how the airline navigates through this difficult time. You do have control over how management treats you as a group.

Maybe it’s time you as an individual stepped up to the bar and became more involved in the union. A unified pilot group is a strong pilot group.

(APC- AirTran Pilot Coalition)

Ding Ding Ding Ding, We have a winner! Typical these days to blame others, we individually are the union and what we do or don't do day in and day out has a heck of a lot more to do with our success or failure than the acronym on the stickers.

The truly depressing fact is that we have a ton of guys who want the spoils of war, but have no stomach for the fight

 

[JoeMerchant]

The truly depressing fact is that we have a ton of guys who want the spoils of war, but have no stomach for the fight

Exactly.....ALPA doesn't change that fact....

There will never be the stomach for the fight unless there is a safety net.....ie lateral movements......

We can argue all day long...and will.....but without transportability of seniority, nothing will change....

 

[SkiFishFly]

I agree that we will only be as strong as we the pilots at AAI make it. The letters behind the union mean little or nothing.

If we sign up for the likes of ALPA, all we will be doing is joining a union which is actually in decline and sending our dues money off to pay the ridiculous salaries of a bunch of guys who couldn't give a dam about AirTran.

It would be much smarter to spend our dues money on better lawyers (even if they are ALPA hired as consultants) and keep our in-house BOD.

With ALPA, it will cost us all more money and we will still only be as strong as our own mec/lec (not sure which acro is correct). We just need to get together as a group.


Remember it was the Company and management that took this lower than whale sheite approach to defend the training department. The BOD was stuck between a rock and a hard place and took what they felt was the best action to protect our fellow pilots. Let's direct the anger and disappointment where it belongs - towards the company leadership.

 

[sweptback]

With ALPA, it will cost us all more money and we will still only be as strong as our own mec/lec (not sure which acro is correct). We just need to get together as a group.

How would it cost you more money when ALPA dues are less than NPA dues?

 

[twepilot]

ALPA, No effn way brother!!

RV

 

[PCL_128]

How would it cost you more money when ALPA dues are less than NPA dues?

My thoughts exactly. Pay less, get more. Sounds good to me.

 

[Sunking]

Alpa may or maynot be the answer, but I must say I had the warm fuzzies with Alpa legal in the back pocket . NPA legal scares me, Been here for years but I still feel like I'm on probation. Company does'nt want you on the property, you're gone. I don't think ALPA would have let Lear hanging.

 

[El Pobre]

Well with ALPA, Prater probably wouldn't have signed off on our "Give away" LOA's. All LOA's are give aways. We have received nothing in return. ALPA would provide a National structure that our Union boys need. Education is a good start.

I wouldn't be so quick to believe that Prater will stand like a brick wall against a bad LOA. ALPA National endoresed a terrible LOA at FEDEX that has out pilots based overseas with no COLA (basically a 50% paycut based on the present value of the Euro) in return for a token housing allowance and small increase in the amount of clothing you could take over with you. Oh yeah, we also get a 3 hour limo ride to the airport before starting the all night drool.

It's a great LOA that was shoved down out throat by the MEC and all the Memphis guys who "didn't care because they weren't going to bid it".

If I was an airtran guy, I would focus on improving NPA from within, rather that expect for ALPA to solve all your problems and to tax your 401K in order to maintain the national officers salaries.

Remember Prater's battle cry...Takin' it back (from the next generation!!!)

 

[El Pobre]

Alpa may or maynot be the answer, but I must say I had the warm fuzzies with Alpa legal in the back pocket . NPA legal scares me, Been here for years but I still feel like I'm on probation. Company does'nt want you on the property, you're gone. I don't think ALPA would have let Lear hanging.

I had a friend involved in an accident and he wasn't too impressed with ALPA legal...whose solution was to let him get "fired" and then a backhanded deal to get hired back a year later.

He represented himself and kept his job, no time off.

If I were involved in an accident or incident (knock on wood) I would hire my own lawyer...based on the experiences of my friend and ALPA national.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I wouldn't be so quick to believe that Prater will stand like a brick wall against a bad LOA. ALPA National endoresed a terrible LOA at FEDEX that has out pilots based overseas with no COLA (basically a 50% paycut based on the present value of the Euro) in return for a token housing allowance and small increase in the amount of clothing you could take over with you. Oh yeah, we also get a 3 hour limo ride to the airport before starting the all night drool.

It's a great LOA that was shoved down out throat by the MEC and all the Memphis guys who "didn't care because they weren't going to bid it".

If I was an airtran guy, I would focus on improving NPA from within, rather that expect for ALPA to solve all your problems and to tax your 401K in order to maintain the national officers salaries.

Remember Prater's battle cry...Takin' it back (from the next generation!!!)

Doesn't matter if you are ALPA, APA, NPA, or Teamsters....none of us are really "unified".....There are too many self interests....

 

[stlflyguy]

ALPA is nothing but legal fees: legal fees being paid to defend itself from the numerous suits brought against it.

Save your cash and show solidarity with your current union. Besides, you won't have to put up with ALPA merger policy!

stlflyguy

 

[rhino3040]

You know what... Screw the junior guys... Just fire them. You know what, thats what AAI mgt would have done. And they would have never hired any of you back. Give the NPA some credit. The did the best with a bad situation. Don't blame them for a chity contract that past NPA BOD's voted for. Have you ever seen a real airline contract???? Have you seen the current contract that we fly under??? It is so full of wholes its not even funny. Give the current NPA the benefit of the doubt. They are dealing with a contract that sells the farm to the company. Their hands are tied to an extent. THANK GOD THE TA III GOT VOTED DOWN. Let them get a decent contract that doesn't have so many chity grey areas and let them work... For god sakes, don't blame the current NPA for the usless retards we had before. Unfortunatly, the current NPA is having to deal with the decision of the usless NPA ran under AP and others before him...

Those are some fighting words ah Fire the junior guys all I have to say is SCREW YOU!

 

[rhino3040]

Lets be real about this. Management played a hand of poker and won. What exactly was GAINED by this last LOA, Please tell. Management gave exactly what they wanted us have. The retired guys still in the training dept. A bunch of the company may's and that is it. I think it is time for the backing of a national union. How do you think it looks with what happened yesterday. The NPA is the laughing stock amid management. When you log into the NPA website you have a 3 page letter about the MEMRAT and nothing about the furloughs or displacement bid that came out today, or what does TBD "we will let you know your status in a few weeks" deal. What does that mean? The union leaders should be all over this and posting something immediately. Hello !!!!!!

AMEN Brotha! Like the previous thread talked about. What the F over!

 

[captain dad]

My experience with ALPA got me a couple of pizzas, a six pack, and two concessionary contracts for a low low dues fee of only $15,000.

I'd say you are probably better off going it alone with an in house union. Hire your own consultants and lawyers. ALPA doesn't care they just want the dues to serve their own purposes and agendas.

Just my opinion.

 

[scarlet]

I say the NO ALPO is winning...

ALPA had done great things for other airlines--ASA=almost 6 years without contract, Mesa, USair/Amwest...

If people would spend half the time helping and getting involved with the union (educate yourself) that they spend complaining, things would be a little better.

 

[Captjiggles]

Only Obama can save us

 

[Uppercrust]

We need more details on the police coming to the union hall. What happened?

I heard it was a domestic dispute between Ty Webb and -9Capt regarding Ty's affair with the ex NPA chairman Allen. Apparently -9Capt confronted Ty about the romance and then attacked him. The police arrived shortly and arrested both.

 

[gt1900]

Rhino....

Obviously you misread my post. Everyone is so p1ssed because of this stupid LOA. Why? Because if kept a few training guys on property. Big friggen deal, most of them will be dead in a couple years anyways they are so old..... Im glad they signed the LOA and I support it. I'm glad the junior guys wont have to get fired and go through all the legal B.S. to get them back. However, guys like PCL-128 seem to think all those guys who might get furloughed hated the LOA.. EVERYONE I talked to who is on the chopping block is glad they aren't getting fired.... That is my point. The company would have fired every single one of those guys to prove a point. There is some battles that you choose to fight, and others that you don't. We need to pick our battles, this one wasn't worth firing 176 pilots in order to save the jobs of 15 or so training dept guys.... BTW.. Seems to me were not going to be getting rid of that many, especially with oil prices falling...

 

[Capt. Kramer]

BTW.. Seems to me were not going to be getting rid of that many, especially with oil prices falling...

How do you figure that? Do you know something we don't?

 

[jehtplane]

Rhino....

Obviously you misread my post. Everyone is so p1ssed because of this stupid LOA. Why? Because if kept a few training guys on property. Big friggen deal, most of them will be dead in a couple years anyways they are so old..... Im glad they signed the LOA and I support it. I'm glad the junior guys wont have to get fired and go through all the legal B.S. to get them back. However, guys like PCL-128 seem to think all those guys who might get furloughed hated the LOA.. EVERYONE I talked to who is on the chopping block is glad they aren't getting fired.... That is my point. The company would have fired every single one of those guys to prove a point. There is some battles that you choose to fight, and others that you don't. We need to pick our battles, this one wasn't worth firing 176 pilots in order to save the jobs of 15 or so training dept guys.... BTW.. Seems to me were not going to be getting rid of that many, especially with oil prices falling...

Let me try and explain this as simple as possible. This was not about keeping guys in the training dept from keeping their jobs. This is about management trying to circumvent the contract by threatening to fire the probies, and about how management is trying to LOA a new contract. This was a battle our union leadership should have fought. The company had no right to fire probies without just cause. It is written in the contract that way. The company is playing chess while our union in being threatened into checkers. Most of the guys I have talked to have said the opposite of what you are saying and yes they are on the chopping block. Have you been reading the NPA forum about short term LOA's and long term LOA's and about how they do not count towards the 177. I am sure that is not what the union had in mind when they agreed to all of this but here we are, management trying to screw the probies again. Is this acceptable to you? we are all in this together not just you. And by the way I am still on probation.

 

[gt1900]

How did they circumvent the contract? Probationary pilots can be let go for any reason. Thats why they call them probationary. Just cause has nothing to do with it. They have every right in the world. I'm not saying I agree with it, because I don't. What I'm saying is the last contract has so many holes in it it allows for these kinds of things to happen. The company is not circumventing the cotract. They are simply using all the holes to their advantage. Again, I don't agree with it. But rememeber, its business. We could fight them, but I'm pretty sure the NPA would not win in court. This is why I say pick your battles. I will not vote for a contract that doesn't tie the knots in all the holes we currently operate under. Like I said before, look at AAI's contract and then look at AMR's, CAL's, DAL, etc. Their contracts are probably 4 times as thick as ours. So this kind of B.S. doesn't happen....
Capt. Kramer.... Notice how everything is still TBD... Gas prices are falling, and there may be some 717's from MEH available. The company slowed growth incredibly fast, they can increase growth incredibly fast as well. That is one thing I will say good about AAI managment. The have proven to be able to adapt the current operating environment very quickly. You can bet they have plans if oil drops back to $80 a barrel..

 

[Secret Squirrel]

How did they circumvent the contract? Probationary pilots can be let go for any reason. Thats why they call them probationary. Just cause has nothing to do with it. They have every right in the world. I'm not saying I agree with it, because I don't. What I'm saying is the last contract has so many holes in it it allows for these kinds of things to happen. The company is not circumventing the cotract. They are simply using all the holes to their advantage. Again, I don't agree with it. But rememeber, its business. We could fight them, but I'm pretty sure the NPA would not win in court. This is why I say pick your battles. I will not vote for a contract that doesn't tie the knots in all the holes we currently operate under. Like I said before, look at AAI's contract and then look at AMR's, CAL's, DAL, etc. Their contracts are probably 4 times as thick as ours. So this kind of B.S. doesn't happen....
Capt. Kramer.... Notice how everything is still TBD... Gas prices are falling, and there may be some 717's from MEH available. The company slowed growth incredibly fast, they can increase growth incredibly fast as well. That is one thing I will say good about AAI managment. The have proven to be able to adapt the current operating environment very quickly. You can bet they have plans if oil drops back to $80 a barrel..

I guess you have not read the contract. There are only about 6 ways a pilot on the seniority list can be taken off. The only rights I do not have is if I am terminated for CAUSE, I can not use the union to try to get my job back.

 

[jehtplane]

How did they circumvent the contract? Probationary pilots can be let go for any reason. Thats why they call them probationary. Just cause has nothing to do with it. They have every right in the world. I'm not saying I agree with it, because I don't. What I'm saying is the last contract has so many holes in it it allows for these kinds of things to happen. The company is not circumventing the cotract. They are simply using all the holes to their advantage. Again, I don't agree with it. But rememeber, its business. We could fight them, but I'm pretty sure the NPA would not win in court. This is why I say pick your battles. I will not vote for a contract that doesn't tie the knots in all the holes we currently operate under. Like I said before, look at AAI's contract and then look at AMR's, CAL's, DAL, etc. Their contracts are probably 4 times as thick as ours. So this kind of B.S. doesn't happen....
Capt. Kramer.... Notice how everything is still TBD... Gas prices are falling, and there may be some 717's from MEH available. The company slowed growth incredibly fast, they can increase growth incredibly fast as well. That is one thing I will say good about AAI managment. The have proven to be able to adapt the current operating environment very quickly. You can bet they have plans if oil drops back to $80 a barrel..

Dude, you are a company Kool-aid drinkin mo'fo. I really wish I was drinkin what you are.

 

[MINIME]

Alpa is not the answer. Killing apathy is. Get rid of company moles within your union. Don't elect people who give even the slightest hint, at consistently siding with the company. That should be your first step.

Trying to get Alpa on property is counterproductive at this stage of the game. It deviates from the goal at hand. The goal being, getting a fair contract for your pilots. Believe me, age 65 Prater will NOT do much better for you. You are only as strong as your local leaders and your pilot group's willingness to stand up.

Again, apathy is not your friend. Get informed, get involved and study your leaders before you elect them.

With tough Lorenzonesque leadership, company siding union officials can be your worst obstacle to a positive contract. That might be your problem. It's several companies' problem. You owe it to yourself, your family, and your fellow pilots to get rid of these individuals. If that's the case, look before you vote and quit voting for them!

Wether it's NPA, APA, or ALPA, the outcome will be the same if these basic issues are not dealt with. Therefore, working to improve your own union is more productive and efficient at achieving the real goal, a contract that is fair and equitable for your pilots. Don't get distracted from the goal at hand. It is exactly what management is counting on you doing!