Airlines Vs Fractional

[rajflyboy]

"Gunfyter Writes"


"We are already better off than all the other fractionals.
This "truck and baker union" negotiated starting pay for the BBJ at 135K going up over 200K. I think thats better than a United 737 Captain makes. A lot better. Its better pay than Southwest.

We are Better off than ALL the Regional airlines... though they be represented by ALPA. I would have loved to be represented by ALPA... but they were never interested in us."



1st >> who cares about BBJ pay >> only a very small group of Pilots gets to fly it! As a whole it doesn't affect the pilot group!

2nd "Better Off Than All Other Fractional" >> Maybe for now >> but Flight Ops has around 220 Airplanes and growing >> Last I checked Netjets actually has 10 fewer airplanes this year than last! From 360 Down to 350! Another 130 Airplanes and Options is right there with Netjets! With many owners 5 year contracts coming due >> We certainly need to keep focused on Customer
Satisfaction and Try to keep each and every person happy! We are not unbeatable! We must not lose sight of the Service side of our business no matter how bad the Union and or Management is working us over with the Contract! A we are the best "Attitude" could easily ruin the place in a heartbeat! Business 101 >> Upset 1 customer and they tell 10 people about it >> then they each tell 10 and then before you know it we end up losing customers!


3rd "We are Better off than ALL the Regional airlines"

With a Regional Airline you have a Schedule >> The Regionals are making money right now and they are the wave of the future in the airlines with the RJ's! An RJ is more of an airplane (Better Equipment) than anything in the corporate world with a few exceptions. Captains can make 60 to 80 thousand too and sometimes more!

I guess if you never worked for an Airline >> You wouldn't understand how nice it is to have a schedule >> and you wouldn't realize that you are not micromanaged in the cockpits at Airlines either and when your senior you only work 12 or 14 days a month and are sometimes able to bid some day trips too! And no call outs at 2 or 3 AM either! Airlines aren't such a bad deal for Pilots >> even now after 9/11. You just need to work magic with your crystal ball and pick the right one to get on with!

Coming from the Military to a Fractional Is like going from the Outhouse to the Penthouse >> but once you get a Taste of Airline Flying >> You Won't want to go back to Corporate or Fractional! I could see why Military pilots love the life >> real food >> No MRE's>> hotel rooms >> use of Phones >> all the good stuff >> Believe it or not >> Airlines are even better most of the time!

Sleeping on a cot in the Desert with the military and then sleeping in a Hilton and Getting Hilton points will easily cloud your mind >> Don't knock the airline stuff if you haven't tried it!

Gunfyter >> I guarantee you would Love it if You worked for an Airline!!! And you wouldn't look back at flying Corporate Aircraft!

 

[Heavy Set]

Not if you get to fly a Citation X at 0.92 mach at FL510 on your way to Aspen... I have had enough of Detroit and ORD to last a lifetime...

 

[rajflyboy]

I could Understand that too!

 

[xrated]

You better have JATO bottles attached to the X to make it go .92 at FL510.

 

[Lrjet55]

I am sure that the ariline lifestyle is better than the Fractional. I havent done it yet but knowing when you are working, sleeping, eating and going home must be real nice.
But lets face it, this is the Fractional portion of the board and for what its worth were all stuck at a fractional for now. NJA sucks for pay in the worst way but what can we do. Were union and hopefully it will get done soon.

So lets just drop which fractional is better than the other. For what its worth they are all **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** jobs until we are paid a livable wage.

 

[rajflyboy]

Very True Lrjet 55!

I hate to see someone pick on Airline Flying >> when they have never tried it >> gotta give em some grief abou it! LOL

 

[Lrjet55]

I've never done it so its my nemesis. Corporate... been there, done that.
I can understand guys like gunfyter becasue from time to time I am like that myself. You see, all of us at a fractional are part of something special. Yes, I know it corny but look at it from our perspective. Everything we are doing is new. None of this has been done before. We are a brand new sector of the aviation industry. Many predict that our industry could be the next "airline job" provided certain aspects including pay and benefits change.

We as NJA, Flex, Options, etc. pilots stand to gain a great deal from this "industry leading" contract NJA is promising us. Its quite an exciting time. Its also very frustrating. I know I hate the questions "what airline do you work for?" or having other airline pilots look down on me for how much money I make. For what I and the rest of the fractional pilots do its truly embarrasing.

If this contract comes out and includes the items we expect it to you can believe we will all be walking through the terminals and fbo's across this country with our heads held high. Not because we are arrogant but because we accomplished something truly special. We will have set a precedent for all other fractionals to follow. We will have made fractional flying a legitamate career and a future for many up and coming pilots.

There will always be the nay sayers who will argue my point and that is fine. We're all entitled to our opinions. But I know for myself I will have finally reached a goal and be proud of what I do.

 

[rajflyboy]

I don't think being a good pilot has much to do with the Wages we make! Just because one guy fly's a Lear and Another Fly's a Boeing doesn't make much difference either! Only thing that matters is that your Happy with your job! Who cares what anyone else thinks!

It doesn't look too good for the Contract at NJA unfortunately! RTS is playing the Union Like Fools >> it could easily be another 2 or 3 years or even more at the rate they are going before we will see something to vote on>> union doesn't seem to push for dates to work this contract out. Frustrating to say the least for the other 1800 pilots in this company! And a "Strike" isn't going to help much either >> it will just cost us customers and hurt our business in other ways! We will lose folks to Flex and Options, etc. if a strike rolls around (no doubt about it). We need to be careful when it comes down to the End Game >> which is years away anyhow!

The Union needs to treat us like adults and start giving out information >> they don't seem to realize how much support they are losing with these lousy MEC messages and the pure lack of information! We are adults and we can handle having more information at our hands! Hand out some more information and support will grow quickly!

As far as Salaries >> People need to look at the Pro Pilot Magazine Salary Guide to see what kind of Salaries are actually being paid for a particular aircraft! This is the only guide that I have found with this info! I'm sure Santulli knows all this info >> We need to educate ourselves as well! The Pro Pilot #'s are as accurate as you can find!

 

[x402]

And a "Strike" isn't going to help much either >> it will just cost us customers and hurt our business in other ways! We will lose folks to Flex and Options, etc. if a strike rolls around (no doubt about it). We need to be careful when it comes down to the End Game >> which is years away anyhow!


Sorry, but the sooner we get to this point the sooner it's over. RTS doesn't have to move off the dime until he's pushed. We won't lose owners because this will be one of the shortest strikes in history. The MEC knows this and for the life of me I cannot understand why they haven't driven this home. Too many of us are twisting in the wind with no end in sight. Find a way to call impasse and then it's thirty days until we have our contract . Buffet will not let this place shut down. My 2 cents.

 

[NJA Capt]

Last I checked Netjets actually has 10 fewer airplanes this year than last! From 360 Down to 350!

Where did this info come from? NJA's fleet has not been reduced. and is in fact still growing. EJM's fleet was cut by 10 a/c, but not NJA's. EJM also added more than 10 managed a/c over the last year so there is probably no decrease in total fleet size either way.

For what it's worth, I was very shocked and sad about the layoffs of the 40 LUK floaters. You guys were great.

 

[rajflyboy]

In Last Years Recurrent class we were told that the company had 360 airplanes total including NJI >> This year we were told the # is 350! Simple math 360-350=10! They also made it sound like the airplanes being sold were being replaced! Who knows!

I guess the #'s make sense >> If NJA lost 10 Airplanes >> sounds like the 350 Figure was including NJA,NJI and NJM. I believe NJA is basically getting a new airplane for every airplane that is sold! NJA has to sell a few airplanes at a time as to not flood the market with a bunch of aircraft at once >> thus devaluing the market price of our airplanes!

 

[NJA Capt]

I never listen to the marketing numbers in recurrent.
The FAA registry in Nov 2002 showed 292 NJA-CMH aircraft. Nov 2003 showed 318 NJA-CMH.

 

[Diesel]

rajiflyboy if you love the airlines soooo much why don't you go there?

I can't figure out if you work at NJA or not. You talk about recurrent stuff and then you say how RTS is playing the union as fools.

The airline stuff isn't for everyone. I couldn't go back and forth to the same place all day long. I like the challenge here and the guys and gals I work with. Am I a lifer here? Probably.

The wife works at an airline so before you go all high and mighty that I don't know what I'm talking about I do. I see all the times she doesn't get paid for "soft time". Or the concessions she took. How about the time she was stuck for 3 days due to snow and didn't earn a cent. Or maybe it's commuting to work on an airline praying she makes the last flight. Maybe it's the crash pad because that's much better than being at home.

There are Pro's and Con's to each type of flying. I'm too lazy to list them all.

If you don't like the fractionals then leave. This isn't a stepping stone to the majors anymore. There are many guys like myself at all the fractionals making this industry into a place where we can hold our heads high. We're at the begining of a new industry of flying. There are going to be bumps, we need to get paid wayyyyy more but it's a gamble.

Your all over the map in terms of customer service then saying we aren't getting what we are worth then how great the regionals are. Choose a path and stick with it.

 

[Muddauber]

Airlines vs. Frax

I quess it all depends on what you like - I'm making more money now than I did at EJI and I'm not working 6 and 5 or 7 and 7. I like the equipment, the company, and the time with the Whisky who now has one in the hangar. Works for me.

Muddy

 

[WileE]

I did the regionals.

I know that the guys with seniority at a major would never think of leaving there. If I had fifteen years of seniority at Delta, I wouldn't either. I just don't think that it's going to be at all pleasant trying to work your way up to that position now, and by the time you get there, who knows what the payscale/working conditions would be?

All I know is that now I'm a ton happier as a fractional guy. I know that QoL can be better at an airline once you've been there for a while, but I'm loving life now and it will only get better with upgrades/raises/etc.. But with commuting or living someplace you don't want to be to go along with the uncertainty of an airline schedule, I'll stay here.

 

[bizjet737]

You better have JATO bottles attached to the X to make it go .92 at FL510.

best i could ever get in the X at 510 was .85

 

[jtf]

I agree with x402 about pushing the company forward into doing something about the contract. Why should the company do anything if they don't have to? Don't they already charge more in management fees to account for higher salaries, when since they are not paying these salaries, they are actually making more money that should rightfully be going directly to the pilots/ backbones of the company? It seems to me that the only way to make the company step up to bat is to use the threat of strike- follow the rules set up by the railways act and get the ball rolling for a strike vote and then cooling off period once it passes. Once the company sees the pilots are serious about a strike they will have to "bargain in good faith" and hopefully make something happen with a new contract. Does anyone really believe there is any incentive for the company to make it happen without the threat of an imminent strike? I'm interested in any other ideas for getting a company to do the right thing- it could help any pilot group trying to move their contracts forward. I'm at an airline and I would like to try the fractionals. I'm not active in my airlines union, but I pay attention to what it and others have done to move the bar forward and I've read Flying the Line to get some understanding into the history of how aviation unions have made gains for their members. I'm definitely no expert, but it sure seems to me that something more drastic needs to happen to force the companies hand. Good luck guys, I hope to join you soon.

 

[rajflyboy]

ALPA has one big advantage over the Teamsters! It just happens to be one of the most important issues as well!

They will do about anything to protect your job in any kind of enforcement action against a pilot by the Company! You will have them on your side and they will send the attorney's too! I don't have a warm fuzzy when it comes to this issue with the teamsters!

At ALPA >> I figured the Union dues would at least offset Attorney fees if I ever needed them!

As far as ALPA's success with the majors >> hmmm let me see >> A bunch of guys are furloughed and ALPA's hurting for revenue! Thats Success!


As far as being a Captain at a Regional >>> A few years back you could make it to the left seat in no time at many companies. Now obviously it will be a wait!

NETJETS could be a great place to work. I think we have a lot more issues other than money! The puzzle palace is way too inefficient! And we end up getting the run around on the road because of it! This ticks me off on a daily basis. The solution is staring Management folks right in the face but they for some reason will not fix it!

They need to make the Schedulers Accountable for their actions >> and the Schedulers need to have someone monitoring their every move>> PM's should be able to oversee the schedulers descision making! If not a PM >> then NETJETS needs to Put a Manager in the Casino to help make Descisions when things get bad>> Ie.. Weather and Maintenance problems! Schedulers run pilots around like Dogs and screw customers over and Cost the company Millions! Its time for management to hold them "Accountable"!

 

[rajflyboy]

I bet ALPA or any of these Unions would love the additional income of 1800 Pilots!!

 

[Lrjet55]

The fuggin' contract aint gonna get down any time soon no matter who is working it. ALPA is a freakin waste of space when it comes to the regionals or a fractional. ALPA does not beleive anyone other than a major should make that much money, ex. Comair. If ALPA truly believed they were worth it things would have been different.

Teamsters is just as bad. A bunch of truckers running around with their thumbs up their a$$es. They have done nothing for us and probably wont.

What we do have going for us is our MEC. It has taken an extraordinary lenght of time for these guys to figure out what they are doing but they have a clue now. The ultimate problem is still the company. They dont care about us or the contract and there is ZERO, 0, squad, NADA, nilch, nothing to motivate them or make them want to settle this thing.

The mediator is unable to come to CMH in January but he is willing to mediate provided we and the company come to him. Fair enough, right? Well do you honestly believe Santulli and his bunch of merry morons are going to travel TO a meeting. HELL NO.

We are basically screwed until this thing runs its course. The MEC knows what we want and time will tell whether we will get it or not.

Hopefully SWA, jB, Frontier and who ever else will take some of us to greener pastures. I thought I would be lifer when I got here. Flying brand new corporate jets across the world was what I always had dreamt of doing. This company can still be "The Place" to be but when. We all have a life to lead and waiting years and years for something that could or could not be great is a huge leap of faith.

Hey Southwest, "how u doin?'

 

[rajflyboy]

I'm With ya man!

 

[sailorman]

well spoken lrjet55.
could not agree more. unfortunatley for me, at 51 years, ain't
many options or time.
I "fly the contract" period. I try to convience everyone that when
mediation dates are over in april its time to walk the walk.
Play time must end for everyone.
Love the job, love the company {if that makes any sense}, love the 7 as well, but in need of finality on the contract bs.
Belief the mec children have come a long way. Can't look back, but if we could?
still love flying, been a curse all my life

 

[Lrjet55]

Gunfyter, Have you spoken to the MEC lately?

They are willing to give up a certain amount of retro for a larger base pay. Thats better than the alternative of more retro and less pay but still not what we deserve and have earned.

As for your war analogy, I think I would feel better if I thought I was helping the process along. I fly the contract but if I knew I was a part of some work action or something I was doing actually made a difference then this wait would be more tolerable. I kills me to picture RTS sitting in his PHAT PBI home whilst we barely scrape by during the holiday.

Sailorman,

I spoke with our MEC shortly before christmas and I was told that our mediator said there was no way negotiations would go until April. He said there simply wasn't enough information to be discussed. The MEC cautioned this was before both sides had presented their respective proposals. Since some negotiations were taking place during the holiday it will be most interesting to see what they have to say. I honestly pray there will be a positive announcement this week.

 

[Sam Fisher]

The fuggin' contract aint gonna get down any time soon no matter who is working it. ALPA is a freakin waste of space when it comes to the regionals or a fractional. ALPA does not beleive anyone other than a major should make that much money, ex. Comair. If ALPA truly believed they were worth it things would have been different.

This statement shows how truly ignorant you are as to the "in's and out's" of ALPA and the "regionals." Judging from your profile, you have zero experience with a "regional" airline or with ALPA. You must get all of your information from this message forum which is full of lies, mistruths, rhetoric, and falsities.

So I'll ask the question....what exactly is "ALPA?" What do those 4 letters mean to you? Some "Wizard of OZ" who controls everything from Washington DC? Do you understand how the bargaining process works?

Don't get me wrong, every labor union has its shortcomings, but I can't stand seeing my union take potshot and after potshot from people who are ignorant and naive to the real situation. I have been at ExpressJet for a while now and have seen the difference between the independant IACP and ALPA. We've been ALPA for 3 years almost and for the entire 18 months of this negotiating process that we are currently entrenched in and the resources, support, and results are outstanding.

There's a lot more I want to say but I fear that the facts might fall on deaf ears.

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

When it comes to Pay Issues ALPA only wants the United,Delta and USAIR guys to get Rich! When it comes to Pilot enforcement Issues >> ALPA helps any of their Pilots!

This is one area where the Teamsters must improve On! Period! This Good Old Boys System they have will not work for 1800 Pilots! Each and every one of the pilots deserves the same attention when it comes to this issue!

 

[Sam Fisher]

When it comes to Pay Issues ALPA only wants the United,Delta and USAIR guys to get Rich! When it comes to Pilot enforcement Issues >> ALPA helps any of their Pilots!

Sorry Raj,

You are sorely misled and mistaken on this issue. Under your logic, then why would ALPA help 2 of those 3 negotiate concessionary contracts with the 3rd being in concessionary discussions as well?

Hate to break it to you....but you are flat out wrong. Have a look at the current Mesaba situation....the past Comair situation...the current ExpressJet situation. Quit buying into the rhetoric and the lies.

Happy New Year!

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

I don't have any issues with ALPA >> But they do favor the Major Airline guys over Everyone Else >> Of course now that A bunch of Major Airline Pilots are out of Work >> Sure >> ALPA is Helping the Regional Folks a lot more!

It All depends on your Local MEC as well! If you have an outstanding MEC >> ALPA or Any Other Union will be much more useful! At a Previous Job >>> Our MEC was very helpful in getting preferential Interviews set up after the Furloughs! I have to admit I was impressed by that! ALPA and the MEC really helped us folks in need!


In Our business Unions are needed to enforce work rules and also to Keep the Flying Public Safe! If you run into a medical problem or an enforcement issue >> its nice to have their help too!

 

[Sam Fisher]

I don't have any issues with ALPA >> But they do favor the Major Airline guys over Everyone Else >> Of course now that A bunch of Major Airline Pilots are out of Work >> Sure >> ALPA is Helping the Regional Folks a lot more!

It All depends on your Local MEC as well! If you have an outstanding MEC >> ALPA or Any Other Union will be much more useful! At a Previous Job >>> Our MEC was very helpful in getting preferential Interviews set up after the Furloughs! I have to admit I was impressed by that! ALPA and the MEC really helped us folks in need!


In Our business Unions are needed to enforce work rules and also to Keep the Flying Public Safe! If you run into a medical problem or an enforcement issue >> its nice to have their help too!

You are back-peddling RAJ. Sorry dude....you make ZERO sense. The fact that we are getting good service has nothing to do with the fact that major pilots are on furlough. Give me a break.

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

It has a lot to do with your MEC and a Lot to do with the restructuring of ALPA's financials!

Its common Sense >> Business 101 >> They lost so much money from all the furloughs >> now they have to pay closer attention to the lower salary Regional Pilots to ensure that ALPA gets the union Dues to stay in Business >> They now realize that Regional Jets are the wave of the Future!

ALPA will get union Dues from Regional guys for years to come >> They need to take care of you Folks!

 

[Sam Fisher]

It has a lot to do with your MEC and a Lot to do with the restructuring of ALPA's financials!

Its common Sense >> Business 101 >> They lost so much money from all the furloughs >> now they have to pay closer attention to the lower salary Regional Pilots to ensure that ALPA gets the union Dues to stay in Business >> They now realize that Regional Jets are the wave of the Future!

ALPA will get union Dues from Regional guys for years to come >> They need to take care of you Folks!

ExpressJet has had the Director of Representation for ALPA as their professional negotiator/attorney for the past 3 years, since before 9/11 and the furloughs. He is the #1 attorney at ALPA and a "regional" has him full time. Not bad in my opinion. Are you sure ALPA still doesn't care about the small jet carriers?

Again, your arguments, while you seem to mean well, lack any sort of logical thought nor do they make sense to me.

Sam