Airline Pilot Pay Too High?

[mushroom]

It may come as a shock to you (and perhaps some others) but before Emmery Air Express went out of business, their DC-10 captains were making 333K per year...flying freight!!

I worked for Emery. I don't know where you are getting your numbers but I never met a captain, either in the DC-8 or DC-10, who made more than $200,000 in a year at most. Even at the top of the pay scale the most senior DC-10 captain would have made about $150,000 a year at guarantee. We had ways to make extra money there but making an extra $180,000 a year over guarantee would be quite a stretch.

 

[DetoXJ]

It takes ten years to become a Dr. 8 Years to become an attorney. A highschool diploma and 6 months at Gulfstream makes you an airline pilot. Please lets not compare ourselves to the likes of true professionals like Drs and Attorneys. Face it, any warm body can buy their way in and occupy a pilot seat. JO & others will continue to fill their classes up no matter how low the pay gets. Sad but true.

 

[Roxy6]

It takes ten years to become a Dr. 8 Years to become an attorney. A highschool diploma and 6 months at Gulfstream makes you an airline pilot. Please lets not compare ourselves to the likes of true professionals like Drs and Attorneys. Face it, any warm body can buy their way in and occupy a pilot seat. JO & others will continue to fill their classes up no matter how low the pay gets. Sad but true.

I'm sorry you don't consider yourself a professional. I think to be a successful pilot you need to be professional. I know many people who have 4+ year degrees or years of military service before attaining their goal as an airline pilot. I guess we can all look at it different ways, as we see it. I guess I just don't know anyone who started their career like that. A small world I live in!

 

[DetoXJ]

I'm sorry you don't consider yourself a professional. I think to be a successful pilot you need to be professional. I know many people who have 4+ year degrees or years of military service before attaining their goal as an airline pilot. I guess we can all look at it different ways, as we see it. I guess I just don't know anyone who started their career like that. A small world I live in!

I do consider myself a professional. I need to rephrase what I meant. There are professional garbage men, professional janitors, professional maids, professional athletes, professional pilots, professional waiters, professional chefs, professional attorneys & Drs, ect. Any job or field can contain "professionals" no matter how insignificant or meanial the work is. On the other hand, many of these fields contain workers who aren't professionals. I have flow with pilots that I don't consider to be professionals, at least not yet. Eventually, most workers become professionals in their field when they work in/at it long enough. Just because you are a warm body in the right seat doesn't make you a professional. Each profession commands a vast difference in pay. There are many shortcuts into the airline industry. Airline Mgmt just loves the current pilot Supply & Demand factor. Just because you are a "professional" doesn't mean you get to make big bucks. To compare the training and expertise required to be a pilot as opposed to a Dr or Attorney is nonsense. I guess by my "True Professional" comment that is what I was refering to. There are no shortcuts to becoming a "True Professional" such as a Physician or Attorney. After all, my neighbor is a "professional" cable installer for Comcast.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I do consider myself a professional. I need to rephrase what I meant. There are professional garbage men, professional janitors, professional maids, professional athletes, professional pilots, professional waiters, professional chefs, professional attorneys & Drs, ect. Any job or field can contain "professionals" no matter how insignificant or meanial the work is. On the other hand, many of these fields contain workers who aren't professionals. I have flow with pilots that I don't consider to be professionals, at least not yet. Eventually, most workers become professionals in their field when they work in/at it long enough. Just because you are a warm body in the right seat doesn't make you a professional. Each profession commands a vast difference in pay. There are many shortcuts into the airline industry. Airline Mgmt just loves the current pilot Supply & Demand factor. Just because you are a "professional" doesn't mean you get to make big bucks. To compare the training and expertise required to be a pilot as opposed to a Dr or Attorney is nonsense. I guess by my "True Professional" comment that is what I was refering to. There are no shortcuts to becoming a "True Professional" such as a Physician or Attorney. After all, my neighbor is a "professional" cable installer for Comcast.

I wonder why there are no shortcuts into becoming a doctor or an attorney? Maybe it's because the doctors and attorney's control their professions and we don't. Education is meaningless, we are professionals because we choose a career path that leads us that way. You can take someone with no education and make them anything you want, it's called proper training. Do you think if doctors let anyone into medical school that has money, the career would pay as high. All the legit doctors would hate little jonny, whose daddy paid $100,000 so he could be a doctor. Sound familiar? Maybe we should give ourselves a new job title, Professional LOSERS.

 

[DetoXJ]

I wonder why there are no shortcuts into becoming a doctor or an attorney? Maybe it's because the doctors and attorney's control their professions and we don't. Education is meaningless, we are professionals because we choose a career path that leads us that way. You can take someone with no education and make them anything you want, it's called proper training. Do you think if doctors let anyone into medical school that has money, the career would pay as high. All the legit doctors would hate little jonny, whose daddy paid $100,000 so he could be a doctor. Sound familiar? Maybe we should give ourselves a new job title, Professional LOSERS.

I respectfully disagree. No 6 months crash course is going to make even the most eager beaver a Dr. or Attorney. Flying is a motor skill that anyone can learn and 6 months of intense training takes one from zero time to the right seat of a regional. For an aspiring Doctor, 6 months get you thru Chem 101, Bio 101 & Physics 101 and thats just the tip of the iceberg of what you must learn. Honestly now, it has nothing to do with who is controlling the profession.

 

[PastFastMover]

No 6 months crash course is going to make even the most eager beaver a Dr. or Attorney. Flying is a motor skill that anyone can learn and 6 months of intense training takes one from zero time to the right seat of a regional.

For this very reason, I will not get on a commuter or allow my family to fly on one. If you really feel you are an airline pilot with the above skill level, you simply don't get it. You may call yourself an airline pilot, but that is about it.

 

[Roxy6]

I do consider myself a professional. I need to rephrase what I meant. There are professional garbage men, professional janitors, professional maids, professional athletes, professional pilots, professional waiters, professional chefs, professional attorneys & Drs, ect. Any job or field can contain "professionals" no matter how insignificant or meanial the work is. On the other hand, many of these fields contain workers who aren't professionals. I have flow with pilots that I don't consider to be professionals, at least not yet. Eventually, most workers become professionals in their field when they work in/at it long enough. Just because you are a warm body in the right seat doesn't make you a professional. Each profession commands a vast difference in pay. There are many shortcuts into the airline industry. Airline Mgmt just loves the current pilot Supply & Demand factor. Just because you are a "professional" doesn't mean you get to make big bucks. To compare the training and expertise required to be a pilot as opposed to a Dr or Attorney is nonsense. I guess by my "True Professional" comment that is what I was refering to. There are no shortcuts to becoming a "True Professional" such as a Physician or Attorney. After all, my neighbor is a "professional" cable installer for Comcast.

Hey my neighbor is a Comcast cable installer too!
I understand what you are saying, my meaning of "professional" is that I believe anyone, as you said, can be and act professionally in their chosen field. A pilot should and one hopes does act professionally and believe they are doing their job to the best of their ability. It wouldn't be encouraging to be boarding a flight say, and have the pilot standing outside the cockpit (they do that sometimes, I believe) or be boarding a single pilot flight and have that person look frumpy, wrinkled, grumpy or seem unsure of themselves or their position. You are putting people at ease for the short time they are with you when you greet them and say welcome to flight #....My name is Capt.....Sometimes a little commentary on the flight. Simple things like that make people feel good and safe even. After 9/11 people view pilots in a different light, they want to believe they are being flown by a competent professional pilot. Remember I am speaking from a passengers view. I know not all pilots are professionals, but neither are all doctors, lawyers, architects, nurses (although you can become an LPN in only 10 months!) I suppose that can be said for any occupation. Pay scales for jobs vary also; you can have no training and become a laborer for a carpenter and in some instances start out making $18.00 an hour. While you guys usually get a raw deal as far as starting pay. That is basically what I am trying to say. Especially when you know you have worked hard to get where you are (generally speaking, I knew as you've said some people buy their way in, not all work at it) it is disappointing to be paid so little. Unfortunately, the general public doesn't know this and think all pilots are making big bucks, I have a friend whose boyfriend refused to believe that ANY pilot made short money, Had to actually download something with regionals pay scales before the man believed me!! I suppose most pilots must love to fly or if they were in it for the money they might want to get out, quick!!! You definitely have a valid point. Anyhow, I don't believe the training should be compared, it is vastly different. But you should have a good working knowledge of your profession, else a bad pilot you make! I have watched people wash out of the training dept, hubby's job, like crazy. They even give them extra training, and still can't make it, they hold ATP's. I guess it depends what job you have, want, or take that determines if you are a qualified professional, I love that word!!! Thinking about it so many people are professionals at their chosen career, prostitutes are professional.....well you know!
Wow sorry for the long winded reply, guess I like to talk ahh..write! Hope I didn't bore y'all to tears!

 

[DetoXJ]

For this very reason, I will not get on a commuter or allow my family to fly on one. If you really feel you are an airline pilot with the above skill level, you simply don't get it. You may call yourself an airline pilot, but that is about it.

No, I think you are the one who doesn't get it, but thanks for proving my point! "The above skill" level, (which keeps you and your family off commuters), does not make you a full fledge professional airline pilot. The short cut route allows pilots to learn the base knowledge and the "motor skills" of flying and they go from Zero time to Regional FOs in 6 months. Since piloting isn't rocket science, the craft/trade or whatever you want to call it can be learned in a short amount of time. These pilots have minimal real world experience and they become a full time babysitting job for the Captains they fly with. Consider them "Apprentices".

If I may, I consider myself a very accomplished airline pilot. I did the long route. 4 year degree, CFII/MEI for 3 years with 50 signoffs and no failures, 8000+ hours 121 (mostly PIC) Nonetheless, I still have the mindset that I strive to learn more improve. I am nothing special or out of the ordinary. My point is/was that many new regional pilots are doing the shorcut route, Gulfstrem, All ATPs, ect. You put those pilots in the right seat who had ZERO time 6 months ago and they obviousally are getting the job done. All be it, I can assure you that the majority of these pilots are a full time babysitting job for their Captains. I look at them as an "Apprentice" who have a heck of a lot to learn. Most of them will prosper and become full fledge professional pilots.

 

[Headwind]

Back to the original post. The judge thinks the airline pilots earn too much.
How much does the judge earn? If she is 63 why is she still working when the airline pilots are forced out at 60?

 

[FearlessFreep]

Why do top tier "professional" athletes, who in the big picture are only playing a game, actors who are only entertaining us get paid such astronomical salaries? They make substantially more than the average doctor who is doing a whole lot more than just entertaining people.

There are a lot of inequities out there, and you can take it to many different degrees.

Back to pilot's being paid too much and the basis of their education and experience. Pilots may not have the same amount of "higher" education that a lawyer or doctor may have, but that does not make the job any easier. Actual piloting skills may be easily attained by those that have the aptitude (not everyone has the ability to think in multiple dimensions). In the USAF they used to have an expression - "We can teach a monkey to fly be we can't teach them to think". Piloting proficiency has a substantial amount of information that can only be imparted directly by experience. Training is something that we have to do constantly, more so than a lot of other careers, so there is more "education" being accomplished than what might initially be observed - it is just not done using the "standard" models of matriculation.

The reason that everyone thinks pilots should be paid less, or that they are overpaid is directly rated to automation. If Airbus Industries had their way there would be no overpaid trained monkeys sitting in the front. Automation has been killing jobs for centuries. The public perception is that the contempory pilot just pushes buttons. I had a highly educated doctor say to me "you just push a button to make the airplane land -right?". He figured that since I was flying a large airliner that's all it took!

I work in Widebody ACMI freight evironment as a 4 year Captain with a base pay substantially lower than 100K a year. I watch "Airline" pilots with an unbelievable infrastructure and other support systems that just jump in and drive making a whole lot more than me and working a lot less. I guess it's just the way it goes. The lower tier doctors, lawyers, actors and athletes and a myriad of other professions are in the same boat - Some get the high pay and some don't.

I wouldn't trade what I do for anything. Could things be better, yes but the basic job fits me. Yes, some more compensation and less time out on the road is definitely in line.

It's all perspective. There are a number of careers and/or jobs that do not fit the average categorization of work performed verses compensation. You cannot use the same yardstick in evaluation of these. Being a pilot is just one of those jobs.

In short, some of us are underpaid and some are overpaid, it's just the way of the world. Good luck changing it.

Not that it is very scientific but occasionally the Parade Sunday paper magazine will do a survey of what people are paid. It is always shocking to see the regional and career differences. It's a real eye opener. There's a lot of overworked and underpaid people out there.

Sorry if this is disjointed and/or the misspellings - just got in from a long hard trip.

Good Luck To Us All!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Asking if someone...anyone...is "overpaid" is folly.

Anyone making more than me is "overpaid". Anyone doing what I do for less is "destroying the profession". I'm right where we should be - earning 95% of what I spend each month.

Evaluating our income while seated at a keyboard, eating Cheetos and sipping Pepsi, is going to cause an intellectual response that doesn't truly reflect why we do this job.

The best time to ask yourself if you're overpaid is right after you bust through the top of a cruddy, bumpy overcast, into bright, smooth sunshine. Put your sunglasses on, check out the startlingly white cloud deck and brilliant blue sky...then glance over to your F/O and ask, "Are we overpaid?"

Then try not to giggle...

Every profession has it's version crappy layovers, lame Chief Pilots, and unstable economic outlook.

The 4 times it's fun to be an airline pilot:

1. When you push 'em up for takeoff.
2. When you ease the stick back to land.
3. When you get paid.
4. When a little kid asks you what you do for a living.

 

[danish22]

Can't help myself here...gotta reply about this professional Doctor / Lawyer thing and comparing them to professional pilots.

There are professionals in all fields and aviation is one of them. Sure you can go out and pay some money and 6 months and be an "airline pilot". I don't think that's the kind of professional pilot with a class 1 physical, thousands of hours, and years of experience we're talking about. I don't see too many 6 month wonders taking a 747 or a GV overseas. It's about a decade or so after those 6 months that a major carrier or cargo or corperate flight department will CONSIDER interviewing someone for a position to do that.

Now for the Doctors and Lawyers... Let's not get to carried away with how "professional" these guys are and whether they are on another level than pilots in charge of the lives of hundreds of people and, in some cases, hundreds of millions of dollars of equipment. Just like pilots, there are outstanding doctors and lawyers. But there are plenty of ambulance chaser / class action lawsuit lawyers out there that aren't doing anything but lining their pockets. They might be able to go to law school and pass a test, but let's see some of those same guys try to shoot a CAT II to minimums after an overseas flight into a foriegn field. And there are plenty of quacks out there in the medical field that aren't "saving lives everyday". (I worked in a ER before...trust me). Yes there are great doctors doing unbelievable things to save people - professionals that deserve great pay. But there are plenty of "take some Vitamin-M (Motrin), you'll be fine. That'll be $500 dollars" doctors out there. And never forget that doctors bury their mistakes. Medical mistakes kill more than airline pilots do each year. An airline pilot makes a mistake....well you know the rest.

 

[rfresh]

...And don't forget this: 50% of the doctors in this country graduated in the bottom half of their class!! (OK, but I couldn't resist).

 

[PastFastMover]

If I may, I consider myself a very accomplished airline pilot. I did the long route. 4 year degree, CFII/MEI for 3 years with 50 signoffs and no failures, 8000+ hours 121 (mostly PIC)

I'm sorry but you prove my point. Your above experience shows you are just about ready to go to a major and be a rooky FO. All that time and experience just to get ready for a job interview with a major. CFIIing for 3 years at least in my opinion is not the long route. Going from point A to point B IMHO is not experience no matter how much time gets logged. Sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[DetoXJ]

I'm sorry but you prove my point. Your above experience shows you are just about ready to go to a major and be a rooky FO. All that time and experience just to get ready for a job interview with a major. CFIIing for 3 years at least in my opinion is not the long route. Going from point A to point B IMHO is not experience no matter how much time gets logged. Sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.

A new hire Major FO is an accomplished pilot, excluding (UAL and US Air pre 9/11). Regional FO's are the rookies. Sorry if you don't understand.