Airline Pilot Pay Too High?

[AdlerDriver]

Even the carriers mentioned above were stretched to make $300,000+ in a year. The highest payrate at NW was around $250/hour and United and Delta got up around $300/hour. Don't know about United or Delta but the NW guys making that kind of money were only getting paid for around 70 hours/month.

$250/hour X 70 hours X 12 months = $210,000/year

You could probably find a one-off guy who manages to credit upwards of 90 hours a month but these guys are rare or have some weird arrangement with management or the training department.

I don't see how NWA guys on their largest aircraft are only getting paid for 70 hours. You're not just going to make guarantee flying heavy iron internationally. Just by the nature of the length of the flight, the longer layovers and most company's trip/duty rigs, you can't fly more than 3-4 trips before you bump up against either FAA flight limits or (more likely) company/union imposed monthly maximums.

A 3 day trip from the west coast to London is probably going to be worth 25-30-ish hour of pay. 9-10-ish hours over, probably a little more coming back, plus the trip rig value of sitting in London for 24 hours (probably 5-ish hours of pay - depends on the company). So, the trip probably pays 25 hours. Do that 3 times and you're already at 75 hours for the month. The company I used to work for would probably not leave it at that and they'd throw a 2-day domestic trip on top of that to make it 11 days of work and 85 hours pay. Fly to Asia and you'll probably get to 85 just flying the 9 days.

$250 x 85 x 12 = $255,000

 

[PastFastMover]

Although the 'good ole days' are over for the high salaries airline pilots used to make, were they over paid?


Sorry rfresh if I came off a bit too harsh. This is a hard medium to express oneself in. I am about to retire and have been in this biz for over 30 years with military before that. Have worked for 3 majors due to BK's. Have flown long haul to Europe, Pacific, and Deep South. I now fly turnarounds only in the USA on a narrow body. I suppose there may have been a handful of folks earning what you said in the good ole days, I personally never met them. I heard a few Delta and United types bragging of their huge pay that only lasted in reality months. In my opinion, looking at the background required, min requirements, toll on your body (especially long haul), Missed events of every type with your family, etc etc etc.. This job does not pay too much and never has. At least for me, I should have been flying a narrow body on turnarounds my entire career and I would have been much happier. But everyone is different and those all night long hauls effect each person in a different manner.

Cheers

 

[Roxy6]

Before I get flamed, I agree that pilots are underpaid.

Now, having to hear this pilots vs. doctors argument once again shows how irrational y'all are being. Pilots are trained to handle emergencies when $hit hits the fan, like many other professions out there. Doctors are trained to SAVE LIVES everyday. There is quite a difference, and if you fail to realize this, well.. your opinion is not worth much.

Think next time you type.

Relax!! It is just a quick comparison, not an insult to the training or necessity of either occupation. No need to become upset. Doctors are wonderful, we couldn't do without them!!! Pilots are wonderful, if we want quick travel, we couldn't do without them either! I realize the differences, I just believe that pilots are-yes trained in emergencies, but are also (or should be) trained to do their jobs and keep people safe, in what is not always the best of conditions, hence the lives in your hands statement. That is a humbling fact many do not think of or realize, and no I am not implying this means you. As for my opinions...well you don't have to like them, that is why they are opinions, not facts. I think when I type, I type what I think. Sorry if you can't accept that. That is the crappy thing about message boards, people get so darned bent out of shape over trivial things! I personally like the conversation and sharing of ideas, opinions! I hope you didn't "get flamed"!! No need.

 

[Spooky 1]

You'll find more than one-off guy. Your quoting base pay. Don't forget ALPA did a great job of getting their pilots extra money: over-water pay, night pay, INS pay, etc. on top of their base pay!! It adds up.

I knew a 737 Captain with Delta who told me their standby trip pay was absolutely awsome. He called it 'Green Card' trips because he filled in a green colored card. When he was not flying he made sure crew control knew he was available to take a stand by trips. He said the money for stand by trips on a 737 was as much as base pay on a DC-10. He loved flying Green Card trips. And this was for a 737 - what do you think the DC-10 and 747 Captains flying Green Card trips were hauling down?

For those who don't know, airline pilots are paid by how heavy their plane is - so a DC-10 or 747 pilot makes *a lot* more than a 737 pilot. Seniority determines what equipment you can fly and therefore how much you can make.

All of your posts regarding this subject are very flawed. First of all just name the carrier that is flying from LAX to LHR in a DC10. Not happening today. Secondly the round trip time for this flight is closer to 18.5 hours and while you might do it three times a month, your going have to back fill with something else. If you don't know squat about the subject, don't post. Been there, done that.

 

[DoinTime]

I don't see how NWA guys on their largest aircraft are only getting paid for 70 hours. You're not just going to make guarantee flying heavy iron internationally. Just by the nature of the length of the flight, the longer layovers and most company's trip/duty rigs, you can't fly more than 3-4 trips before you bump up against either FAA flight limits or (more likely) company/union imposed monthly maximums.

A 3 day trip from the west coast to London is probably going to be worth 25-30-ish hour of pay. 9-10-ish hours over, probably a little more coming back, plus the trip rig value of sitting in London for 24 hours (probably 5-ish hours of pay - depends on the company). So, the trip probably pays 25 hours. Do that 3 times and you're already at 75 hours for the month. The company I used to work for would probably not leave it at that and they'd throw a 2-day domestic trip on top of that to make it 11 days of work and 85 hours pay. Fly to Asia and you'll probably get to 85 just flying the 9 days.

$250 x 85 x 12 = $255,000

Most trip rigs pay as a whole of the trip. If your 3-day trip spends 60 hours away from base and your trip rig is 3.5:1 the rig alone would be worth 17.1 hours. If the flying on that same trip credited 20 hours of flying you would be paid for the greater of. In this case 20 hours. With Northwest's international flying you are hard pressed to get any money from the trip rig unless you have an extraordinarily long (i.e., more than 2 days) sits out of domicile. This is unlikely unless you are on reserve.

Additionally, the monthly maximum is variable between 75 and 81 hours (monthly guarantee is variable between 63-69 hours) per month. You cannot pick up or trip trade anything that brings you above these maximums.

So even a 747-400 captain in NW's big pay days (about a total of 1.5 years) working the absolute maximum (assuming the max stayed at 81 hours all year) would yield:

81 X 12 X $250 = $243,000/year

It is impractical to reach the maximums though because trips are generally worth 20+ hours and cannot be broken up. 20+ hours cannot be added to the regular line values without exceeding the maximum. This is why I said that average pay is usually closer to 70 hours/month and yearly pay in the $210,000 range at its peak ($146,000 after concessions).

 

[mushroom]

It may come as a shock to you (and perhaps some others) but before Emmery Air Express went out of business, their DC-10 captains were making 333K per year...flying freight!!

I worked for Emery. I don't know where you are getting your numbers but I never met a captain, either in the DC-8 or DC-10, who made more than $200,000 in a year at most. Even at the top of the pay scale the most senior DC-10 captain would have made about $150,000 a year at guarantee. We had ways to make extra money there but making an extra $180,000 a year over guarantee would be quite a stretch.

 

[DetoXJ]

It takes ten years to become a Dr. 8 Years to become an attorney. A highschool diploma and 6 months at Gulfstream makes you an airline pilot. Please lets not compare ourselves to the likes of true professionals like Drs and Attorneys. Face it, any warm body can buy their way in and occupy a pilot seat. JO & others will continue to fill their classes up no matter how low the pay gets. Sad but true.

 

[Roxy6]

It takes ten years to become a Dr. 8 Years to become an attorney. A highschool diploma and 6 months at Gulfstream makes you an airline pilot. Please lets not compare ourselves to the likes of true professionals like Drs and Attorneys. Face it, any warm body can buy their way in and occupy a pilot seat. JO & others will continue to fill their classes up no matter how low the pay gets. Sad but true.

I'm sorry you don't consider yourself a professional. I think to be a successful pilot you need to be professional. I know many people who have 4+ year degrees or years of military service before attaining their goal as an airline pilot. I guess we can all look at it different ways, as we see it. I guess I just don't know anyone who started their career like that. A small world I live in!

 

[DetoXJ]

I'm sorry you don't consider yourself a professional. I think to be a successful pilot you need to be professional. I know many people who have 4+ year degrees or years of military service before attaining their goal as an airline pilot. I guess we can all look at it different ways, as we see it. I guess I just don't know anyone who started their career like that. A small world I live in!

I do consider myself a professional. I need to rephrase what I meant. There are professional garbage men, professional janitors, professional maids, professional athletes, professional pilots, professional waiters, professional chefs, professional attorneys & Drs, ect. Any job or field can contain "professionals" no matter how insignificant or meanial the work is. On the other hand, many of these fields contain workers who aren't professionals. I have flow with pilots that I don't consider to be professionals, at least not yet. Eventually, most workers become professionals in their field when they work in/at it long enough. Just because you are a warm body in the right seat doesn't make you a professional. Each profession commands a vast difference in pay. There are many shortcuts into the airline industry. Airline Mgmt just loves the current pilot Supply & Demand factor. Just because you are a "professional" doesn't mean you get to make big bucks. To compare the training and expertise required to be a pilot as opposed to a Dr or Attorney is nonsense. I guess by my "True Professional" comment that is what I was refering to. There are no shortcuts to becoming a "True Professional" such as a Physician or Attorney. After all, my neighbor is a "professional" cable installer for Comcast.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I do consider myself a professional. I need to rephrase what I meant. There are professional garbage men, professional janitors, professional maids, professional athletes, professional pilots, professional waiters, professional chefs, professional attorneys & Drs, ect. Any job or field can contain "professionals" no matter how insignificant or meanial the work is. On the other hand, many of these fields contain workers who aren't professionals. I have flow with pilots that I don't consider to be professionals, at least not yet. Eventually, most workers become professionals in their field when they work in/at it long enough. Just because you are a warm body in the right seat doesn't make you a professional. Each profession commands a vast difference in pay. There are many shortcuts into the airline industry. Airline Mgmt just loves the current pilot Supply & Demand factor. Just because you are a "professional" doesn't mean you get to make big bucks. To compare the training and expertise required to be a pilot as opposed to a Dr or Attorney is nonsense. I guess by my "True Professional" comment that is what I was refering to. There are no shortcuts to becoming a "True Professional" such as a Physician or Attorney. After all, my neighbor is a "professional" cable installer for Comcast.

I wonder why there are no shortcuts into becoming a doctor or an attorney? Maybe it's because the doctors and attorney's control their professions and we don't. Education is meaningless, we are professionals because we choose a career path that leads us that way. You can take someone with no education and make them anything you want, it's called proper training. Do you think if doctors let anyone into medical school that has money, the career would pay as high. All the legit doctors would hate little jonny, whose daddy paid $100,000 so he could be a doctor. Sound familiar? Maybe we should give ourselves a new job title, Professional LOSERS.

 

[DetoXJ]

I wonder why there are no shortcuts into becoming a doctor or an attorney? Maybe it's because the doctors and attorney's control their professions and we don't. Education is meaningless, we are professionals because we choose a career path that leads us that way. You can take someone with no education and make them anything you want, it's called proper training. Do you think if doctors let anyone into medical school that has money, the career would pay as high. All the legit doctors would hate little jonny, whose daddy paid $100,000 so he could be a doctor. Sound familiar? Maybe we should give ourselves a new job title, Professional LOSERS.

I respectfully disagree. No 6 months crash course is going to make even the most eager beaver a Dr. or Attorney. Flying is a motor skill that anyone can learn and 6 months of intense training takes one from zero time to the right seat of a regional. For an aspiring Doctor, 6 months get you thru Chem 101, Bio 101 & Physics 101 and thats just the tip of the iceberg of what you must learn. Honestly now, it has nothing to do with who is controlling the profession.

 

[PastFastMover]

No 6 months crash course is going to make even the most eager beaver a Dr. or Attorney. Flying is a motor skill that anyone can learn and 6 months of intense training takes one from zero time to the right seat of a regional.

For this very reason, I will not get on a commuter or allow my family to fly on one. If you really feel you are an airline pilot with the above skill level, you simply don't get it. You may call yourself an airline pilot, but that is about it.

 

[Roxy6]

I do consider myself a professional. I need to rephrase what I meant. There are professional garbage men, professional janitors, professional maids, professional athletes, professional pilots, professional waiters, professional chefs, professional attorneys & Drs, ect. Any job or field can contain "professionals" no matter how insignificant or meanial the work is. On the other hand, many of these fields contain workers who aren't professionals. I have flow with pilots that I don't consider to be professionals, at least not yet. Eventually, most workers become professionals in their field when they work in/at it long enough. Just because you are a warm body in the right seat doesn't make you a professional. Each profession commands a vast difference in pay. There are many shortcuts into the airline industry. Airline Mgmt just loves the current pilot Supply & Demand factor. Just because you are a "professional" doesn't mean you get to make big bucks. To compare the training and expertise required to be a pilot as opposed to a Dr or Attorney is nonsense. I guess by my "True Professional" comment that is what I was refering to. There are no shortcuts to becoming a "True Professional" such as a Physician or Attorney. After all, my neighbor is a "professional" cable installer for Comcast.

Hey my neighbor is a Comcast cable installer too!
I understand what you are saying, my meaning of "professional" is that I believe anyone, as you said, can be and act professionally in their chosen field. A pilot should and one hopes does act professionally and believe they are doing their job to the best of their ability. It wouldn't be encouraging to be boarding a flight say, and have the pilot standing outside the cockpit (they do that sometimes, I believe) or be boarding a single pilot flight and have that person look frumpy, wrinkled, grumpy or seem unsure of themselves or their position. You are putting people at ease for the short time they are with you when you greet them and say welcome to flight #....My name is Capt.....Sometimes a little commentary on the flight. Simple things like that make people feel good and safe even. After 9/11 people view pilots in a different light, they want to believe they are being flown by a competent professional pilot. Remember I am speaking from a passengers view. I know not all pilots are professionals, but neither are all doctors, lawyers, architects, nurses (although you can become an LPN in only 10 months!) I suppose that can be said for any occupation. Pay scales for jobs vary also; you can have no training and become a laborer for a carpenter and in some instances start out making $18.00 an hour. While you guys usually get a raw deal as far as starting pay. That is basically what I am trying to say. Especially when you know you have worked hard to get where you are (generally speaking, I knew as you've said some people buy their way in, not all work at it) it is disappointing to be paid so little. Unfortunately, the general public doesn't know this and think all pilots are making big bucks, I have a friend whose boyfriend refused to believe that ANY pilot made short money, Had to actually download something with regionals pay scales before the man believed me!! I suppose most pilots must love to fly or if they were in it for the money they might want to get out, quick!!! You definitely have a valid point. Anyhow, I don't believe the training should be compared, it is vastly different. But you should have a good working knowledge of your profession, else a bad pilot you make! I have watched people wash out of the training dept, hubby's job, like crazy. They even give them extra training, and still can't make it, they hold ATP's. I guess it depends what job you have, want, or take that determines if you are a qualified professional, I love that word!!! Thinking about it so many people are professionals at their chosen career, prostitutes are professional.....well you know!
Wow sorry for the long winded reply, guess I like to talk ahh..write! Hope I didn't bore y'all to tears!

 

[DetoXJ]

For this very reason, I will not get on a commuter or allow my family to fly on one. If you really feel you are an airline pilot with the above skill level, you simply don't get it. You may call yourself an airline pilot, but that is about it.

No, I think you are the one who doesn't get it, but thanks for proving my point! "The above skill" level, (which keeps you and your family off commuters), does not make you a full fledge professional airline pilot. The short cut route allows pilots to learn the base knowledge and the "motor skills" of flying and they go from Zero time to Regional FOs in 6 months. Since piloting isn't rocket science, the craft/trade or whatever you want to call it can be learned in a short amount of time. These pilots have minimal real world experience and they become a full time babysitting job for the Captains they fly with. Consider them "Apprentices".

If I may, I consider myself a very accomplished airline pilot. I did the long route. 4 year degree, CFII/MEI for 3 years with 50 signoffs and no failures, 8000+ hours 121 (mostly PIC) Nonetheless, I still have the mindset that I strive to learn more improve. I am nothing special or out of the ordinary. My point is/was that many new regional pilots are doing the shorcut route, Gulfstrem, All ATPs, ect. You put those pilots in the right seat who had ZERO time 6 months ago and they obviousally are getting the job done. All be it, I can assure you that the majority of these pilots are a full time babysitting job for their Captains. I look at them as an "Apprentice" who have a heck of a lot to learn. Most of them will prosper and become full fledge professional pilots.

 

[Headwind]

Back to the original post. The judge thinks the airline pilots earn too much.
How much does the judge earn? If she is 63 why is she still working when the airline pilots are forced out at 60?