Airline Pilot Pay Too High?

[rfresh]

Although the 'good ole days' are over for the high salaries airline pilots used to make, were they over paid?

Senior wide-body (747, DC-10, etc.) Captains used to pull in around 250-300K per year for working 9 days a month. A friend of mine flys DC-10 for a major and flys LAX to London. It's about 11+ hours each way. He has a 24 hour layover and then brings it back - round trip flight time is around 24 hours. He's gone for 3 days. Due to FAA international flight time limits, he can fly this trip only 3 times per month. So he ends up with about 21 days off per month.

Anyway, here is the news story:

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ATLANTA - The judge overseeing Delta Air Lines Inc.'s bankruptcy case, who had ruffled feathers among the company's pilots with comments about their high pay, is taking a two-month medical leave of absence, a court official said Monday.

Judge Prudence Carter Beatty, 63, is taking leave and the Delta case has been reassigned to Judge Adlai Hardin.

In November, a lawyer representing Delta's pilots union asked Beatty to remove herself from deciding on Delta's request to reject the union contract so the airline could impose $325 million in concessions on pilots. The request came after the judge had referred in an earlier hearing to Delta pilot wages as being "hideously high" and adding, "What's really weird is that anyone agreed to pay them that much money to begin with."
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That last comment really shows you this judge has absolutely no clue about who ALPA is (the pilots union).

 

[NYCPilot]

What about who decided to pay that judge her salary or a doctors or maybe some guy who hits a baseball.

 

[Roxy6]

I wish the pay was "too high"! I think it's pretty low, 'specially if you are just starting a job. To get to the "good jobs" you have to move up that ladder, each time you take a new position, usually that means a paycut. If you are starting a new company that is.
I'm not a pilot, just married to one, but I'll tell ya, it is hard to raise a family comfortably on a first year payscale at a regional!
If it weren't for you pilots, the planes would just sit there. You take lives in your hands every day, a lot of them at once, more than a doctor even!
I'll be very excited when the pay is "too high" for my family!
You guys rock!!

 

[PastFastMover]

"Senior wide-body (747, DC-10, etc.) Captains used to pull in around 250-300K per year for working 9 days a month."

Which airlines paid 300K, and if they did, how many pilots total actually made this much at 9 days a month?


"he can fly this trip only 3 times per month. So he ends up with about 21 days off per month."

How much did you say this neighbor makes? How many times would you prefer he flew LAX LHR in one month? If you have never flown long haul then I can understand your amazement. Try flying it for a few months and tell me how you like it.

I can't tell from your short bio whether you fly for an airline or not. If you do fly for an airline and you think you are overpaid maybe you can contribute the amount you think you are overpaid to the retirement funds of say a United, Northwest, delta, Braniff, Eastern, etc etc etc pilot. Or you could also contribute it to those pilots that lost their medicals. So so many factors go into what one is paid and why. You really sound like a management wannabe or someone who has never actually gotten the job and walked in the shoes of those of us who have been doing this for most of our adult lives.

The obscene salarys come into play when the bankruptcy lawyers get involved, or when management gives themselves 10's of millions in stock options and bonus's after they have taken the company into BK.

 

[Swass]

I think you better re-read some of his other posts and lighten up. I'm sure he's flown long-haul, many times.

 

[24 carat]

Wouldn't it be fairer if those starting out would get paid a bit more and those who made it (to the big carriers) would get paid a bit less. Parity and all (much like the NFL one might say).

Wishful thinking, I know. Especially considering my own situation...

 

[rfresh]

Wouldn't it be fairer if those starting out would get paid a bit more and those who made it (to the big carriers) would get paid a bit less. Parity and all (much like the NFL one might say).

Wishful thinking, I know. Especially considering my own situation...

I see you have quite a sense of humor...!!

 

[rfresh]

>Which airlines paid 300K, and if they did, how many pilots total actually >made this much at 9 days a month?

It may come as a shock to you (and perhaps some others) but before Emmery Air Express went out of business, their DC-10 captains were making 333K per year...flying freight!!

I was only talking about the major air carriers such as Delta, United, Northwest, etc. But as I said, they don't earn that much anymore...they have had to take some pretty big paycuts.

 

[cynic]

Let me clear this up for all of you. Airline pilots now start out around 20 - 25K a year. In a few years you are making 40 - 45K a year. Then spend the rest of your career eeking up to about 75K a year and thats where you will top out.

Its not bad, but not great cosidering the amount of travel. Its where the major airlines will be soon enough (If they ever hire another pilot)

Yes there will be a few guys that will be the exception and make huge bucks in a GV but thats the new reality.

 

[dsee8driver]

>Which airlines paid 300K, and if they did, how many pilots total actually >made this much at 9 days a month?

It may come as a shock to you (and perhaps some others) but before Emmery Air Express went out of business, their DC-10 captains were making 333K per year...flying freight!!

I was only talking about the major air carriers such as Delta, United, Northwest, etc. But as I said, they don't earn that much anymore...they have had to take some pretty big paycuts.

Emery is not a good example. I went to Emery for a short while while furloughed, after starving at ASA. Emery guys did not make that kind of money for long. The co agreed to that contract and soon after closed the doors. I wish I still had the hourly rates from Emery.

 

[LarryinTN]

Wouldn't it be fairer if those starting out would get paid a bit more and those who made it (to the big carriers) would get paid a bit less. Parity and all (much like the NFL one might say).

Sure! Where do I apply for my retro check to cover what I wasn't paid for my first ten years in this industry? I assume that I'll receive the present value of those past payments?

 

[DoinTime]

I was only talking about the major air carriers such as Delta, United, Northwest, etc. But as I said, they don't earn that much anymore...they have had to take some pretty big paycuts.

Even the carriers mentioned above were stretched to make $300,000+ in a year. The highest payrate at NW was around $250/hour and United and Delta got up around $300/hour. Don't know about United or Delta but the NW guys making that kind of money were only getting paid for around 70 hours/month.

$250/hour X 70 hours X 12 months = $210,000/year

You could probably find a one-off guy who manages to credit upwards of 90 hours a month but these guys are rare or have some weird arrangement with management or the training department.

 

[Gorilla]

4 or 5 years of those "easy", 3 or 4 trips-per-month to Europe and Asia, plus double all-nighters to GRU and SCL, and my butt was kicked. The body effects are insidious and cumulative. After finally making it home, it took a minimum of 24, and more like 48 hours, before I felt normal again. Then a couple of days off, and it was time to go again for that quadruple chest x-ray NAT long haul.

After watching the sun rise over the North Atlantic countless times at some bizarre body clock, throwing my internal circadian rythm into severe spasms, trying to talk to Shannon on the HF, I have concluded that we are underpaid.

Even better - waking up in the hotel in Tokyo at 1:00 AM local, not knowing or caring what day it is, only knowing we meet for departure in 15 hours, and eating vending machine noodles to try and jack the blood sugar up a bit... the glamour blew me away! I couldn't believe I was being paid to do this! :erm:

No doubt this will get some type of "suck it up you weenie" or "If you don't like it, quit" type of response... I DO find it rewarding; I like my job. But it is NOT easy on a number of levels, and those freakish salaries of old are earned. We need to elevate all facets of the professional pilot industry, starting with new props and RJ guys.

 

[dabandermac]

If it weren't for you pilots, the planes would just sit there. You take lives in your hands every day, a lot of them at once, more than a doctor even!

Before I get flamed, I agree that pilots are underpaid.

Now, having to hear this pilots vs. doctors argument once again shows how irrational y'all are being. Pilots are trained to handle emergencies when $hit hits the fan, like many other professions out there. Doctors are trained to SAVE LIVES everyday. There is quite a difference, and if you fail to realize this, well.. your opinion is not worth much.

Think next time you type.

 

[rfresh]

$250/hour X 70 hours X 12 months = $210,000/year

You could probably find a one-off guy who manages to credit upwards of 90 hours a month but these guys are rare or have some weird arrangement with management or the training department.

You'll find more than one-off guy. Your quoting base pay. Don't forget ALPA did a great job of getting their pilots extra money: over-water pay, night pay, INS pay, etc. on top of their base pay!! It adds up.

I knew a 737 Captain with Delta who told me their standby trip pay was absolutely awsome. He called it 'Green Card' trips because he filled in a green colored card. When he was not flying he made sure crew control knew he was available to take a stand by trips. He said the money for stand by trips on a 737 was as much as base pay on a DC-10. He loved flying Green Card trips. And this was for a 737 - what do you think the DC-10 and 747 Captains flying Green Card trips were hauling down?

For those who don't know, airline pilots are paid by how heavy their plane is - so a DC-10 or 747 pilot makes *a lot* more than a 737 pilot. Seniority determines what equipment you can fly and therefore how much you can make.

 

[AdlerDriver]

Even the carriers mentioned above were stretched to make $300,000+ in a year. The highest payrate at NW was around $250/hour and United and Delta got up around $300/hour. Don't know about United or Delta but the NW guys making that kind of money were only getting paid for around 70 hours/month.

$250/hour X 70 hours X 12 months = $210,000/year

You could probably find a one-off guy who manages to credit upwards of 90 hours a month but these guys are rare or have some weird arrangement with management or the training department.

I don't see how NWA guys on their largest aircraft are only getting paid for 70 hours. You're not just going to make guarantee flying heavy iron internationally. Just by the nature of the length of the flight, the longer layovers and most company's trip/duty rigs, you can't fly more than 3-4 trips before you bump up against either FAA flight limits or (more likely) company/union imposed monthly maximums.

A 3 day trip from the west coast to London is probably going to be worth 25-30-ish hour of pay. 9-10-ish hours over, probably a little more coming back, plus the trip rig value of sitting in London for 24 hours (probably 5-ish hours of pay - depends on the company). So, the trip probably pays 25 hours. Do that 3 times and you're already at 75 hours for the month. The company I used to work for would probably not leave it at that and they'd throw a 2-day domestic trip on top of that to make it 11 days of work and 85 hours pay. Fly to Asia and you'll probably get to 85 just flying the 9 days.

$250 x 85 x 12 = $255,000

 

[PastFastMover]

Although the 'good ole days' are over for the high salaries airline pilots used to make, were they over paid?


Sorry rfresh if I came off a bit too harsh. This is a hard medium to express oneself in. I am about to retire and have been in this biz for over 30 years with military before that. Have worked for 3 majors due to BK's. Have flown long haul to Europe, Pacific, and Deep South. I now fly turnarounds only in the USA on a narrow body. I suppose there may have been a handful of folks earning what you said in the good ole days, I personally never met them. I heard a few Delta and United types bragging of their huge pay that only lasted in reality months. In my opinion, looking at the background required, min requirements, toll on your body (especially long haul), Missed events of every type with your family, etc etc etc.. This job does not pay too much and never has. At least for me, I should have been flying a narrow body on turnarounds my entire career and I would have been much happier. But everyone is different and those all night long hauls effect each person in a different manner.

Cheers

 

[Roxy6]

Before I get flamed, I agree that pilots are underpaid.

Now, having to hear this pilots vs. doctors argument once again shows how irrational y'all are being. Pilots are trained to handle emergencies when $hit hits the fan, like many other professions out there. Doctors are trained to SAVE LIVES everyday. There is quite a difference, and if you fail to realize this, well.. your opinion is not worth much.

Think next time you type.

Relax!! It is just a quick comparison, not an insult to the training or necessity of either occupation. No need to become upset. Doctors are wonderful, we couldn't do without them!!! Pilots are wonderful, if we want quick travel, we couldn't do without them either! I realize the differences, I just believe that pilots are-yes trained in emergencies, but are also (or should be) trained to do their jobs and keep people safe, in what is not always the best of conditions, hence the lives in your hands statement. That is a humbling fact many do not think of or realize, and no I am not implying this means you. As for my opinions...well you don't have to like them, that is why they are opinions, not facts. I think when I type, I type what I think. Sorry if you can't accept that. That is the crappy thing about message boards, people get so darned bent out of shape over trivial things! I personally like the conversation and sharing of ideas, opinions! I hope you didn't "get flamed"!! No need.

 

[Spooky 1]

You'll find more than one-off guy. Your quoting base pay. Don't forget ALPA did a great job of getting their pilots extra money: over-water pay, night pay, INS pay, etc. on top of their base pay!! It adds up.

I knew a 737 Captain with Delta who told me their standby trip pay was absolutely awsome. He called it 'Green Card' trips because he filled in a green colored card. When he was not flying he made sure crew control knew he was available to take a stand by trips. He said the money for stand by trips on a 737 was as much as base pay on a DC-10. He loved flying Green Card trips. And this was for a 737 - what do you think the DC-10 and 747 Captains flying Green Card trips were hauling down?

For those who don't know, airline pilots are paid by how heavy their plane is - so a DC-10 or 747 pilot makes *a lot* more than a 737 pilot. Seniority determines what equipment you can fly and therefore how much you can make.

All of your posts regarding this subject are very flawed. First of all just name the carrier that is flying from LAX to LHR in a DC10. Not happening today. Secondly the round trip time for this flight is closer to 18.5 hours and while you might do it three times a month, your going have to back fill with something else. If you don't know squat about the subject, don't post. Been there, done that.

 

[DoinTime]

I don't see how NWA guys on their largest aircraft are only getting paid for 70 hours. You're not just going to make guarantee flying heavy iron internationally. Just by the nature of the length of the flight, the longer layovers and most company's trip/duty rigs, you can't fly more than 3-4 trips before you bump up against either FAA flight limits or (more likely) company/union imposed monthly maximums.

A 3 day trip from the west coast to London is probably going to be worth 25-30-ish hour of pay. 9-10-ish hours over, probably a little more coming back, plus the trip rig value of sitting in London for 24 hours (probably 5-ish hours of pay - depends on the company). So, the trip probably pays 25 hours. Do that 3 times and you're already at 75 hours for the month. The company I used to work for would probably not leave it at that and they'd throw a 2-day domestic trip on top of that to make it 11 days of work and 85 hours pay. Fly to Asia and you'll probably get to 85 just flying the 9 days.

$250 x 85 x 12 = $255,000

Most trip rigs pay as a whole of the trip. If your 3-day trip spends 60 hours away from base and your trip rig is 3.5:1 the rig alone would be worth 17.1 hours. If the flying on that same trip credited 20 hours of flying you would be paid for the greater of. In this case 20 hours. With Northwest's international flying you are hard pressed to get any money from the trip rig unless you have an extraordinarily long (i.e., more than 2 days) sits out of domicile. This is unlikely unless you are on reserve.

Additionally, the monthly maximum is variable between 75 and 81 hours (monthly guarantee is variable between 63-69 hours) per month. You cannot pick up or trip trade anything that brings you above these maximums.

So even a 747-400 captain in NW's big pay days (about a total of 1.5 years) working the absolute maximum (assuming the max stayed at 81 hours all year) would yield:

81 X 12 X $250 = $243,000/year

It is impractical to reach the maximums though because trips are generally worth 20+ hours and cannot be broken up. 20+ hours cannot be added to the regular line values without exceeding the maximum. This is why I said that average pay is usually closer to 70 hours/month and yearly pay in the $210,000 range at its peak ($146,000 after concessions).