Airline Pay cuts driving away best pilots

[Redmeat]

I asked my trash man last week what he made. His response was 60K. My UPS van driver makes 95K with no cost out of pocket for medical.

Yep, and if those guys got their pensions gutted and slapped with a 40% pay cut next week, they would be out the door so fast you would see a visible smoke trail coming off of their shoes.

Not so with pilots. We have proved to the world of management over and over again that you can beat us over the head as much as you want, cut our pay, negate our pensions and we'll keep showing up for work.

Not only that, record numbers of young new talent will get in line to work for the reduced wages/benefits.

 

[airplane wizard]

Sadly, the flying public doesn't care who flies the plane or what they get paid and they probably never will. A major event like this gets their attention for a couple of days but in the end they just want cheap tickets.

That's the american way of thinking for everything. The most for the cheapest price possible

 

[airplane wizard]

Yep, and if those guys got their pensions gutted and slapped with a 40% pay cut next week, they would be out the door so fast you would see a visible smoke trail coming off of their shoes.

Not so with pilots. We have proved to the world of management over and over again that you can beat us over the head as much as you want, cut our pay, negate our pensions and we'll keep showing up for work.

Not only that, record numbers of young new talent will get in line to work for the reduced wages/benefits.

No one is forcing you to be a pilot....get a job with UPS if the grass is greener. It all boils down to the paycheck.

 

[Redmeat]

No one is forcing you to be a pilot....get a job with UPS if the grass is greener. It all boils down to the paycheck.

You missed the point entirely.

You must be one of the new guys that came to the party willing to fly for the reduced wages/benefits. Not real quick on the uptake.

I will go slow this time especially for you, Oooo Kkkkkk?

The point of my narrative was... why would management raise our wages (or keep them where they are for that matter) when they have no difficulty filling pilot positions at the current compensation levels?

Get it now Einstein?

 

[Lear70]

You missed the point entirely.

You must be one of the new guys that came to the party willing to fly for the reduced wages/benefits. Not real quick on the uptake.

I will go slow this time especially for you, Oooo Kkkkkk?

The point of my narrative was... why would management raise our wages (or keep them where they are for that matter) when they have no difficulty filling pilot positions at the current compensation levels?

Get it now Einstein?

OK, I don't care who you are... that's funny.

I'm a military pilot that aspires to be an airline pilot someday (becoming a mil pilot and then airline pilot has been a dream since I was a kid)

If there is ever a day when the MPL program (and I am an airline pilot) feeds 1 year wonders with 90% of their time in a sim to the Majors, I will walk out of the career for 3 reasons:

I don't think it will happen at the majors, but it's already BEEN happening to a certain extent everywhere else.

I've been flying with 280-300 hour total time not-yet-21 year olds in the right seat since way back at Pinnacle 4 years ago. Doing it again in the Lear right now, an airplane with almost zero automation to help when things start going south, and it's largely a single-pilot operation.

It's one of the reasons why pay is so abysmal at the regionals and Charter companies who hire whoever they can get to play the "yes" game. The guy/gal is just so darn happy to be here, they don't care if they qualify for food stamps and still live in their parents' basement for 2-3 years until they are close to upgrade. They'll only be 24 by then, making $60k a year, that's not so bad, right?

Like others have said, until people stop flooding this profession with pilots AND we can stop the MPL and cabotage, things won't get any better, unless pilots at EVERY carrier are willing to, just like the UPS guy, put their boots to work and walk away for a while.

The only thing the CEO's understand is money. Hurt them financially, they'll do something. Otherwise, forget it. :deadhorse:

 

[IBNAV8R]

I've been noticing a disturbing trend during the last ten years or so. Focus is made on following the procedure, SOP, FOM, FAR, AIM, etc, without knowing the why or reason.
"If you do it this way, push these buttons in this order, you'll be safe."
If you push them in any other order you're history."
"But what if . . .?"
"Just follow the well-thought-out-procedure!"
"If you remember to keep up your airspeed, you can't stall or spin so we won't concentrate on such unlikely things."
"If you get a shaker, follow this procedure and maintain your altitude."

We are no longer creating pilots but systems managers. This is not to say that managing systems is not a vital skill. But, I had an alarming interaction recently in which a couple of fellow captains declared that they ALWAYS use the autpilot because it is safer and more comfortable for passengers. They forbid F/Os from kicking off the A/P above approach minima. "You mean you NEVER practice approaches with just the F/D or hand fly using raw data?" (A/P and F/D are both MELable on this airplane)
"No, that would compromise safety. Passengers don't want us 'practicing'." HOLY DOG$!@T BATMAN!! I sure as hell don't want ride on their airplane.
Recent events have highlighted the fact that systems fail and when they do, systems managers are useless. Unless we have stick and rudder PILOTS who can actually FLY, people are gonna die. Unfortunately, any airline-type-training school can quickstart a systems manager but, there is no fast track to becoming a PILOT.

 

[jimcav]

Amen to that!

 

[Birdstrike]

The point of my narrative was... why would management raise our wages (or keep them where they are for that matter) when they have no difficulty filling pilot positions at the current compensation levels?

It's funy how some things never change. The exact same sentiments of above appeared on the old defunct Propilot.com's early message boards back in '95 or '96. It will probably still be posted in 2021.

In WWII he was called Jody and he's always with us - those guys who are more than willing to step in and take your place with a smile, completely undermining you in the process. They never run out of them.

 

[Flyin2low]

You guys need to get educated on the MPL pilots. Most responses in this thread are way off base. Fear of the unknown or ignorant, I don't know which?

The only accurate info was about the chick who is training for the MPL with LH

 

[AKMD80GUY]

What about this clown.

Co-pilot’s Age [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]34 years
[/FONT][/FONT]Co-pilot’s Flying Experience [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]381 hours (of which 147 were on type)
Last 90 days - 154 hours
Last 28 days - 49 hours
[/FONT][/FONT]
Here is the full report.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Airbus A320, G-DHJZ 12-08.pdf

 

[acpilot]

We are no longer creating pilots, but systems managers...Recent events have highlighted the fact that systems fail and when they do, systems managers are useless...Unfortunately, any airline-type-training school can quickstart a systems manager but there is no fast track to becoming a PILOT.

Yup..

 

[Lear70]

What about this clown.

Co-pilot’s Age [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]34 years
[/FONT][/FONT]Co-pilot’s Flying Experience [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]381 hours (of which 147 were on type)
Last 90 days - 154 hours
Last 28 days - 49 hours
[/FONT][/FONT]
Here is the full report.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Airbus A320, G-DHJZ 12-08.pdf

Yeah, 'cause *THAT'S* safe... Not.

Someone with that little flight time would just be along for the ride if something went wrong. Been there. Done that. Have that t-shirt.

I wouldn't let someone like that fly my dog without supervision..

YMMV

 

[JoeMerchant]

First, I agree that experience counts...and I welcome any attempt to increase the experience of cockpit crews......However...

1. If low pay is driving away the experience....How come it didn't drive away this USAirways crew....They BOTH are very experienced and have had their pay slashed in recent years....

2. What has ALPA done to use experience as a leverage?

3. Have we not collectively created a system that does not reward experience? If Sully were to leave USAirways for another carrier.....would he be able to transport that experience?

We did this to ourselves.....We don't reward experience in this business....why do we expect anyone else to?

 

[Brody1]

Blah, blah, blah.

What are you going to do about it?

Ooh, ooh, ooh! I know, I know (hand waving in the air)

The answer is: NOTHING.

I got beat down when I suggested taking advantage of this PR opportunity.

What was their alternative? Nothing. More of the same. PAC contributions. Talk to Congress.

Is Congress now going to look into our pay and working conditions because Sully told them to? Will the boys from ALPA National, APA, et al now have traction at the D.C. cocktail parties they attend? Will they have Senators flocking around them and hanging on their every word. Is Prater's number going to be on Oberstar's call log? (Will it even be on a sticky in Ob's assistant's office?)

Is management shaking in their Guccis?

Unless we get innovative and change our tactics, nothing will come of this golden opportunity. The stage is set, the microphone is on, the cameras are rolling, the seats in the theatre are full and nothing will happen because we didn't bother to show up because we were unwilling to try something different.

Sorry to interrupt. Please continue your discussion.

TC

I agree that the profession needs to change tactics. Not sure that I would agree to giving the unions their marching orders to get the word out to the public regarding pay issues. Historically, when has this EVER worked? I've always thought that the public perceived pilots as underworked and overpaid. The feedback on some of the public forums regarding Sully's remarks was pretty one-sided, at least the ones that I saw. It sucks- but unfortunately it's reality. I don't think that pilots will ever get much sympathy from the flying public regarding pay and QOL issues- but safety is another matter. If pilots (and unions) can convince people that commercial aviation is becoming more and more unsafe (which it is), and do this without ever bringing compensation into the equation, people might actually take us seriously. Informational picketing outside of multiple busy airports with SEVERAL DIFFERENT AIRLINES' pilots taking part in it together- from both regionals and majors. We can say that we're not asking for more money, we just want to make the public aware of some of the issues that concern us, and the trends that we find alarming. We can discuss things like heavy mx being sent overseas, fatigue, lack of proper crew rest, recent changes in some of the ASAP programs, etc. You get the idea. It would get plenty of exposure. Call me a hopeless optimist, but given the state of our profession at the moment, what do we have to lose? IF it actually creates any momentum, it might lead to the dreaded 'committe' approach where someone in Washington decides that this issue warrents further review due to all the media attention it's receiving. Maybe, just maybe, the committee will find that with the media exploiting it, and the flying public getting a little spooked by it all, that maybe it's in everyone's best interests to address a few of these concerns.

Is it a bit radical? Yep. Far-fetched? Maybe. After losing 40% of our income, and most of our pensions, what the hell? Besides, when was the last time you saw pilots from different airlines standing side by side, in uniform, in front of an airport educating the passengers on something other than wages?

 

[eaglesview]

1. If low pay is driving away the experience....How come it didn't drive away this USAirways crew....They BOTH are very experienced and have had their pay slashed in recent years....

2. What has ALPA done to use experience as a leverage?


We did this to ourselves.....We don't reward experience in this business....why do we expect anyone else to?

Sully was talking about driving away future pilots. as for your point number 2 you are correct, ALPA cannot use experience as a leverage because they have prostituted themselves and now represent anyone with a pulse and a pilots certificate as long as they arein good standing."

 

[climbhappy]

If you use this logic, then one could say this industry drove many experienced travel agents away. Show me an industry where serving cokes can net you 60k and 15 days off a month, and I'll show you one losing their a$$. yes, those days are gone.
Internet ticket sales and the airlines propensity to have "fare sale" after "fare sale" created an expectation of cheap tickets. It is beyond late to see a fix for this.

Only a change in FAA regs to even sit in a 121 cockpit could impact this. Without 1500, an ATP and a national pilot union similar to a bar association for lawyers, would you ever see pilots get any leverage.

Does anyone have any numbers on how many 500 hour wonders occupy regional cockpits? I'm talking about initial time at hiring. Find that number and you'll find the problem.

 

[727C47]

in the 60's during the last genuine pilot shortage United hired guys with just basically a private ticket,most of them retired as 747,DC-10 Captains,just saying.

 

[pilotyip]

not everyone made Capt

in the 60's during the last genuine pilot shortage United hired guys with just basically a private ticket,most of them retired as 747,DC-10 Captains,just saying.

many also failed and ended that project

 

[lionflyer]

Only a change in FAA regs to even sit in a 121 cockpit could impact this. Without 1500, an ATP and a national pilot union similar to a bar association for lawyers, would you ever see pilots get any leverage.

...or a revision to the RLA giving us pilots a little leverage. I don't expect the FAA to change a darn thing. If it costs the airlines any money, Fuggetaboutit!

 

[climbhappy]

it doesn't help when airlines choose to control their fuel costs with hedges at the top of the spike... just one stupid decision after another.