Airline Pay cuts driving away best pilots

[ROSWELL41]

I'll add this. In a few years we may actually be in a position to have a real pilot shortage. The one everyone has been hoping for. I am convinced that it will be thwarted by the MPL. If that does not happen, I expect cabotage to be sold as the only way to solve our 'shortage'. The top guys and management will benefit and that will be the final nail in the coffin.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Most of the individuals I fly with have advance degrees. I myself decided that to make 150-180K a year as an FO in 10 years, and 280-350K as a CA at the end game, was worth going after my dream, instead of being a Doctor. I gave up med school for this.
My point is that at many majors that is the norm. The military pilot went to the airlines instead of consulting et al, why because there was enough money in it, that he choose to make a little less and enjoy what he is doing. The civilian got in to it because it paid fairly well, and it was what he loved to do. (I knew I would make less than a medical profession, but decided that 200K+ was good enough for me. I was going to be a radiologist. They start at 600K a year and have over 15 weeks of vacation Most of them are making over 1 million their first year out of residency. Point is that I knew there would bea difference)
Now take these pay cuts and other cuts we have all faced. I cannot leave to go be a Dr. I would be in my late 40's before I would be out of residency. I have the proverbial handcuffs on. I am not the issues, and management knows that. What the issue is, is what is around the corner.
People going the civilian track are finding it very hard to get financing for a Riddle degree. Why? Well, the banks know we are paid horribly and we are a bad risk. Most regional FO's just default on their 200K loans. Military guys have a longer commitment. If you are in for 10 might as well go for 20 and get a retirement. We all know that there is not one in the airlines.
Furthermore, anyone with an iota of intelligence realizes that there are other jobs out there that will pay much more for a lot less effort, pain and suffering. In effect I will just buy my airplane and fly it on the side. I know if I had a crystal ball and could see this I would of.
Qualified people, the ones that you parents want flying them will not become pilots in the future, that will effect the safety of our profession.
management assigns a cost to safety, they have just been able to stick it to this generation because they know we cannot leave.

Good post ACL.
Glad the ASA days are behind...!

 

[pilot125]

How many of us will "make it" and have the luxury of being in Sully's position some time in the next 10-20-30 years??? 1 out of 10 of us? Maybe?????

And is that what the lucky ones have to look forward to...............$150,000/year..........after busting our hump for most of our career, spending over half the month away from our wives (or husbands) and children--all of the birthdays we miss, and first steps and first toothe being lost, and graduation parties, and anniversary parties missed......and not being able to do the saturday afternoon backyard BBQ with neighbors, and so on......

To one day, at 63 years old, to be able to make $150,000 as a senior airline captain.........to quote one of my favorite movie lines from good ole Jack Nickolson, "IS THIS AS GOOD AS IT GETS?"

Cmon, $150,000 got you quite a bit 20 years ago, but to look forward to making that 10-20 years from now?

And I'm not saying that I have the solution, because I don't, but would really like to turn back the hands of time to make things "right" again for this industry.

Just saying.

 

[ROSWELL41]

I think one of the biggest problems with pilots is an issue of self worth. $100,000 is not much money anymore. (Insert response: "Well, here in Podunkville, Iowa, I could live like a king on that!")

 

[Jetjockey]

I think one of the biggest problems with pilots is an issue of self worth. $100,000 is not much money anymore. (Insert response: "Well, here in Podunkville, Iowa, I could live like a king on that!")

Or to the likes of Instructor Doosh, "i think $100,000 is more than enough living in my parent's basement"

 

[birdman1]

Ignore the DUDE!!!

Sometimes jobs have other perks that make up for the pay, which isn't all that bad in my opinion. 150k for a Capt and 75K for an FO is good money IMO.

Please flightinfo, just ignore this dude. I know who this is, and they are not even a pilot. This person is a loser who has no life, so they go on sites like flightinfo to stir-up emotions. They do this to get off. Again, please ignore the DUDE, and do not reply, as I will ignore you.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Sully makes what 150K/yr?, works 4 days a week, lives in a 500K house. For most of america this is a dream job. True it is not what is used to be(what is?), but it is still a great way to make a living. Maybe with Sully's input the college degree will continue to be less important is getting a flying job. BTW Do pilots still fly airplanes or do they program them?

I see you and Instructordude are on the same side of this argument -- by yourselves. How does it feel to have the same opinion as a flamebaiter?

At what point will pilot wages will be low enough so that you say, "Well, OK, we could all do with a pay raise."

BTW, lowering the bar by advocating the disposal of a college degree as a requirement for entering this field just drives another nail into the coffin.

 

[Whine Lover]

"I was going to be a radiologist. They start at 600K .....Most of them are making over 1 million their first year out of residency. " - ACL65

Mmmm..No, I don't think so:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000062.html

And the Airline salaries you mentioned:

"150-180K a year as an FO in 10 years, and 280-350K as a CA at the end game"

Are you using 1999-2000 Pay scales adjusted for inflation or what?

YKW

 

[ACL65PILOT]

"I was going to be a radiologist. They start at 600K .....Most of them are making over 1 million their first year out of residency. " - ACL65

Want to bet. I know the guys that hires them for a health care conglomerate in the Midwest. Not the techs that go to school for a few years make less, but they are not the ones calling the shots.Mmmm..No, I don't think so:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000062.html

And the Airline salaries you mentioned:

"150-180K a year as an FO in 10 years, and 280-350K as a CA at the end game"
Are you using 1999-2000 Pay scales adjusted for inflation or what?

A little older than that, but in essence yes, that is where I made my decision to continue in this career filed.

 

[Whine Lover]

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_HC07000062.html

So you're saying that this link/data is THAT far off base?

Like 100% or more?


YKW

 

[pilotyip]

I got it, lets go back to regulation

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. BTW SWA the low cost provider has near the top wages, this was done under de-reg. Still is still la great way to make a living, pilots are not doctor's, if you want to be treated like a doctor finish med school, pilots are not wall street CEO's, if you want ot be a wall street CEO, get into one the top 10 MBA's school. You are pilot you fly airplanes, if you like doing that you are probably happy. If not you are in the wrong line of work. BTW who are the 50-75% who will give up their jobs so a few pilots can go back to the good ole day?

 

[AA717driver]

Blah, blah, blah.

What are you going to do about it?

Ooh, ooh, ooh! I know, I know (hand waving in the air)

The answer is: NOTHING.

I got beat down when I suggested taking advantage of this PR opportunity.

What was their alternative? Nothing. More of the same. PAC contributions. Talk to Congress.

Is Congress now going to look into our pay and working conditions because Sully told them to? Will the boys from ALPA National, APA, et al now have traction at the D.C. cocktail parties they attend? Will they have Senators flocking around them and hanging on their every word. Is Prater's number going to be on Oberstar's call log? (Will it even be on a sticky in Ob's assistant's office?)

Is management shaking in their Guccis?

Unless we get innovative and change our tactics, nothing will come of this golden opportunity. The stage is set, the microphone is on, the cameras are rolling, the seats in the theatre are full and nothing will happen because we didn't bother to show up because we were unwilling to try something different.

Sorry to interrupt. Please continue your discussion.

TC

 

[8v8ter]

Mpl

We can see the MPL in action at foreign airlines. I know a 21 year old girl in the ab-initio program at Lufthansa, a pretty reputable airline. Now, she is pretty sharp but she had never flown a powered aircraft before, and will spend one year in a classroom, the second year getting flight training in Arizona, and then into the right seat of an Airbus 320 with about 250 hours or less of TOTAL time. She will have the MPL when she is done. Lufthansa has some pretty experienced Captains, but they better be on their game EVERY leg.

By the way, can someone tell me what privileges can someone with the MPL exercise when not in an airline cockpit, ie., can they rent a Cessna on their own time?

 

[reepicheep]

I contend there will never be a true pilot shortage here in the US. The thing is you always have a new batch of kids coming up and they aren't trying to decide whether to be pilot, or a plumber, or a doctor. They want to fly. Period. And you're always going to have enough who are willing to instruct, fly an SJ, do what it takes to get into that 737. You can tell 'em they'll top out at 120k, 100k, 60k. They're still going to outsupply demand.

 

[skywiz]

MPL = bad idea

I'm a military pilot that aspires to be an airline pilot someday (becoming a mil pilot and then airline pilot has been a dream since I was a kid)

If there is ever a day when the MPL program (and I am an airline pilot) feeds 1 year wonders with 90% of their time in a sim to the Majors, I will walk out of the career for 3 reasons:

1) Its unsafe - it would be too much of a burden on the Captain to babysit the right seater. There is a reason you have 2 pilots. And the copilot needs years of experience. Yea..some will say the military does something similar to MPL, but its a very rigorous and selective process with lots and lots of training (took me 3.5 years before I even flew with my fleet squadron) ... and its costs approx 1 million give or take a few per student to get wings.

2) Pay will go even lower. Its bad enough as it is. But there is no way copilots with 1 yr of aviation experience are going to be making what first officers make now. It will drag aviation pay across the board down and make it a true blue collar job.

3) The pride of the profession will diminish dramatically. I like to think airline pilots are highly respected, skilled, and professional individuals that earn their experience either thru
a) the civilian ranks by thousands of hours of instructing, flying freight, regionals, etc.. or
b) the miltary with years of rigorous flight training, demanding missions, and performing under pressure in a military flight environment.

So with the MPL, they will put young pimpley face 1 year wonders into the cockpit of a 737 to fly the public? I never thought I would say this.. but I will walk out of the cockpit the day this happens in America.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Well, skywiz, you'd better not get in a Lufthansa 737 on your next leave.

Because that's how they train their F/Os.

 

[instructordude]

(I knew I would make less than a medical profession, but decided that 200K+ was good enough for me. I was going to be a radiologist. They start at 600K a year and have over 15 weeks of vacation Most of them are making over 1 million their first year out of residency. Point is that I knew there would bea difference)

I too had a similar problem. I was going to be a professional tennis player but after playing a little in college and talking some who were on the tour decided it wasn't for me. The long days on the tour, traveling to 20 different countries in a year, injuries and skin cancer didn't make the 1-2 million a year in pay worth it. I instead decided to be a pilot.:laugh:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm a military pilot that aspires to be an airline pilot someday (becoming a mil pilot and then airline pilot has been a dream since I was a kid)

One could argue that MIL flight training is a MPL program......


If you decide to become an airline pilot, and MPLs are common place, you'd best accept them as equals... the sooner you treat them as second class the sooner they will readily form their own representation unit and bargain against you....

Number one rule of unionization... we are all equal.

 

[Mud Eagle]

One could argue that MIL flight training is a MPL program......

Eh?

Is that how they turn a 22-year old with 250 hours loose in a single seat fighter?

 

[Flopgut]

I don't think an MPL will be paired with an over 60 captain. That will be interesting. Guys getting screwed by the rule right now will get furloughed on their 60 b-day because they can't fly with the FOs.