PunchTheClown
STOP MAD COWBOY DISEASE
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Airline flying
- Thread starter GuppyPuppy
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GuppyPuppy
Living the Dream
- Joined
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- Posts
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Tejas-Jet-
I'm assuming you work for Southwest. I'd be pretty happy there too with the good pay and working for a solid company.
However, I'm working for a company that was started about 7 years ago who everyone thought would be the next Southwest. Well, it isn't even close. I respect your company and even own stock in it. I have no stock in mine. If I had some play money right now, I'd short the stock of my own company.
Even when I was working for a legacy, I liked my job. Yes, the relationships between each employee group as well as with management were terrible. But, we had a good contract that soon became a great contract. This made up for all the negatives we had to put up with on a daily basis. My new company doesn't have a decent contract and my old company has basically dumped just about every good thing in their contract.
These days we still have to put up with all the negatives, but we don't see the rewards like we did six years ago.
As far as quitting airline flying altogether... I have a family to raise. Bills to pay. We've already given up much in pay and benefits and I can't give any more. If I could walk into a place like FedEx on third year pay, that'd be great, but it just isn't going to happen!
One of the biggest drawbacks I see about starting out in this idustry is that your fortunes are directly tied to the company you work for. You have very little control over what management decides to do with your career. You hope and pray that your company will be around when you retire, because if you leave your company for whatever reason, you start out at year one pay. Even though being a nurse might not be the best job (as stated) at least a nurse can take their skills elsewhere and be compensated based on their experience. An airline pilot cannot do that.
I don't have the link, but read Barry Schiff's recent article in AOPA Pilot magazine. He is a retired TWA captain. He is watching his son, Brian, go through some terrible times in regard to his career. I believe that Brian was a captain at TWA and is now on the street (as far as airline flying). Barry plainly states that he can no longer encourage anyone to pursue a career as an airline pilot.
The point in my original post... Flying used to be fun (when I was flying small aircraft, even to the point when I was working for a legacy). Now, for me, fun flying (small aircraft) is unaffordable and I really miss it.
GP
I'm assuming you work for Southwest. I'd be pretty happy there too with the good pay and working for a solid company.
However, I'm working for a company that was started about 7 years ago who everyone thought would be the next Southwest. Well, it isn't even close. I respect your company and even own stock in it. I have no stock in mine. If I had some play money right now, I'd short the stock of my own company.
Even when I was working for a legacy, I liked my job. Yes, the relationships between each employee group as well as with management were terrible. But, we had a good contract that soon became a great contract. This made up for all the negatives we had to put up with on a daily basis. My new company doesn't have a decent contract and my old company has basically dumped just about every good thing in their contract.
These days we still have to put up with all the negatives, but we don't see the rewards like we did six years ago.
As far as quitting airline flying altogether... I have a family to raise. Bills to pay. We've already given up much in pay and benefits and I can't give any more. If I could walk into a place like FedEx on third year pay, that'd be great, but it just isn't going to happen!
One of the biggest drawbacks I see about starting out in this idustry is that your fortunes are directly tied to the company you work for. You have very little control over what management decides to do with your career. You hope and pray that your company will be around when you retire, because if you leave your company for whatever reason, you start out at year one pay. Even though being a nurse might not be the best job (as stated) at least a nurse can take their skills elsewhere and be compensated based on their experience. An airline pilot cannot do that.
I don't have the link, but read Barry Schiff's recent article in AOPA Pilot magazine. He is a retired TWA captain. He is watching his son, Brian, go through some terrible times in regard to his career. I believe that Brian was a captain at TWA and is now on the street (as far as airline flying). Barry plainly states that he can no longer encourage anyone to pursue a career as an airline pilot.
The point in my original post... Flying used to be fun (when I was flying small aircraft, even to the point when I was working for a legacy). Now, for me, fun flying (small aircraft) is unaffordable and I really miss it.
GP
Rook
And shepherds we shall be
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Posts
- 1,225
(In case anyone was interested. Sorry if this is a repeat post.)
The glory days are over
BY BARRY SCHIFF (From AOPA Pilot, June 2006.)
Barry Schiff retired from TWA in 1998 after a 34-year
career with the airline.
I have been agonizing over the topic of this column
for a few years, not knowing if I should publicly air
my personal thoughts. Not to do so, I finally
concluded, would be intellectually dishonest. So at
the risk of attracting flak, here goes.
I was hired as a pilot by Trans World Airlines in
1964. This was during the glamour years that began
after World War II. Airline salaries were rising,
working conditions improved with every contract
renewal, and airline pilots earned approval and
respect from every quarter. On international flights,
airline pilots were treated like royalty.
No one working for Pan American World Airways or TWA
during this period could possibly have anticipated the
demise of their airlines. These were cultural icons of
the twentieth century. At one time, TWA's logo was the
second most recognizable in the world (Coca-Cola's was
the first).
The death knell for this era sounded on October 24,
1978, when President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline
Deregulation Act. The merits and demerits of
deregulation aside, the long-term result for pilots
was etched in stone. There would be an erosion of
wages, working conditions, pensions, and job security.
Things got worse after the terrorist attacks of 9/11.
Because of the need for additional security, airline
pilots are locked in their cockpits behind bulletproof
doors and suffer the indignity of coordinating trips
to the lavatory with flight attendants.
The glory years are gone.
I could not have been prouder when my son Brian was
hired by TWA in 1989. Although conditions had declined
since the airlines were deregulated, being an airline
pilot was still a great job. He upgraded to captain on
the Boeing 727 11 years later. Although thrilled to be
in the left seat of a jetliner for a major carrier, he
worked harder and earned a smaller salary than I did
many years previously.
TWA was assimilated by American Airlines in 2001.
During the next two years Brian went from left seat to
right seat to the street. He had been furloughed and
eventually found a job flying Learjets for a Part 135
operator. He now flies as captain of a Canadair
Regional Jet for a commuter carrier.
Like thousands of others who have been furloughed from
the majors, he has no idea when he will be recalled.
Considering that American is reducing its need for
pilots by contractual increases in pilot productivity
and outsourcing many of its shorter, thinner routes to
commuter carriers, it could be many years before Brian
again sees an American Airlines' flight deck. Another
of my sons, Paul, began to satisfy his desire to
become an airline pilot in 2000 when he was hired by
Trans States Airline, a company that operated
TWExpress, US Airways Express, and AmericanConnection.
Paul bounced between all three and discovered after
9/11 that he was not making headway in accruing
seniority.
After four domicile changes, he opted to leave Trans
States and obtain a more promising position with
United Express. He worked there for three years,
during which he had as many changes in domicile, and
discovered that the most he had earned after six years
as a commuter pilot was less than $30,000 per year. He
again foresaw little potential for a career like I had
and with great mental anguish opted to change
professions.
Paul recently started a pet-supply company, gets to
spend every night in his own bed, and has an
opportunity to develop a social life. As an airline
pilot gone from home 21 days a month, he had little
opportunity to meet someone with whom he might like to
share a future. When he did meet someone, he had
neither the time nor the money for dating.
Paul says, "It is relatively easy to get a job with a
commuter carrier, but not because these carriers are
losing pilots to the majors; they are not. The
attrition rate at the regional level is high because
so many pilots reach their limits of endurance and
quit. They find it too difficult to live on starvation
wages [especially those with families]. There usually
was nothing left in my wallet after shelling out for
commuting and crash-pad expenses."
Although these are anecdotal experiences, my frank and
personal discussions with numerous other airline
pilots corroborate my feelings about the state of the
airline industry. I can no longer encourage aspiring
airline pilots without first ensuring that they
understand the treacherous and daunting journeys
typically required to reach for such lofty goals.
Do not misunderstand. Coping with the challenges of
weather, communing with nature in a way that only
pilots can appreciate, and maneuvering a sophisticated
aircraft from one place on Earth to another remains a
stimulating and gratifying endeavor (although I think
it was more fun with less automation). It is the price
one must pay to get there that is so discouraging.
I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an
airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those
determined to endure the rigorous hardships often
required is to simultaneously develop a sideline
vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A
pilot should never get into a position that is totally
dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a
captain for a major airline justify all that must be
endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long
enough to get there is the problem.
The glory days are over
BY BARRY SCHIFF (From AOPA Pilot, June 2006.)
Barry Schiff retired from TWA in 1998 after a 34-year
career with the airline.
I have been agonizing over the topic of this column
for a few years, not knowing if I should publicly air
my personal thoughts. Not to do so, I finally
concluded, would be intellectually dishonest. So at
the risk of attracting flak, here goes.
I was hired as a pilot by Trans World Airlines in
1964. This was during the glamour years that began
after World War II. Airline salaries were rising,
working conditions improved with every contract
renewal, and airline pilots earned approval and
respect from every quarter. On international flights,
airline pilots were treated like royalty.
No one working for Pan American World Airways or TWA
during this period could possibly have anticipated the
demise of their airlines. These were cultural icons of
the twentieth century. At one time, TWA's logo was the
second most recognizable in the world (Coca-Cola's was
the first).
The death knell for this era sounded on October 24,
1978, when President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline
Deregulation Act. The merits and demerits of
deregulation aside, the long-term result for pilots
was etched in stone. There would be an erosion of
wages, working conditions, pensions, and job security.
Things got worse after the terrorist attacks of 9/11.
Because of the need for additional security, airline
pilots are locked in their cockpits behind bulletproof
doors and suffer the indignity of coordinating trips
to the lavatory with flight attendants.
The glory years are gone.
I could not have been prouder when my son Brian was
hired by TWA in 1989. Although conditions had declined
since the airlines were deregulated, being an airline
pilot was still a great job. He upgraded to captain on
the Boeing 727 11 years later. Although thrilled to be
in the left seat of a jetliner for a major carrier, he
worked harder and earned a smaller salary than I did
many years previously.
TWA was assimilated by American Airlines in 2001.
During the next two years Brian went from left seat to
right seat to the street. He had been furloughed and
eventually found a job flying Learjets for a Part 135
operator. He now flies as captain of a Canadair
Regional Jet for a commuter carrier.
Like thousands of others who have been furloughed from
the majors, he has no idea when he will be recalled.
Considering that American is reducing its need for
pilots by contractual increases in pilot productivity
and outsourcing many of its shorter, thinner routes to
commuter carriers, it could be many years before Brian
again sees an American Airlines' flight deck. Another
of my sons, Paul, began to satisfy his desire to
become an airline pilot in 2000 when he was hired by
Trans States Airline, a company that operated
TWExpress, US Airways Express, and AmericanConnection.
Paul bounced between all three and discovered after
9/11 that he was not making headway in accruing
seniority.
After four domicile changes, he opted to leave Trans
States and obtain a more promising position with
United Express. He worked there for three years,
during which he had as many changes in domicile, and
discovered that the most he had earned after six years
as a commuter pilot was less than $30,000 per year. He
again foresaw little potential for a career like I had
and with great mental anguish opted to change
professions.
Paul recently started a pet-supply company, gets to
spend every night in his own bed, and has an
opportunity to develop a social life. As an airline
pilot gone from home 21 days a month, he had little
opportunity to meet someone with whom he might like to
share a future. When he did meet someone, he had
neither the time nor the money for dating.
Paul says, "It is relatively easy to get a job with a
commuter carrier, but not because these carriers are
losing pilots to the majors; they are not. The
attrition rate at the regional level is high because
so many pilots reach their limits of endurance and
quit. They find it too difficult to live on starvation
wages [especially those with families]. There usually
was nothing left in my wallet after shelling out for
commuting and crash-pad expenses."
Although these are anecdotal experiences, my frank and
personal discussions with numerous other airline
pilots corroborate my feelings about the state of the
airline industry. I can no longer encourage aspiring
airline pilots without first ensuring that they
understand the treacherous and daunting journeys
typically required to reach for such lofty goals.
Do not misunderstand. Coping with the challenges of
weather, communing with nature in a way that only
pilots can appreciate, and maneuvering a sophisticated
aircraft from one place on Earth to another remains a
stimulating and gratifying endeavor (although I think
it was more fun with less automation). It is the price
one must pay to get there that is so discouraging.
I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an
airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those
determined to endure the rigorous hardships often
required is to simultaneously develop a sideline
vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A
pilot should never get into a position that is totally
dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a
captain for a major airline justify all that must be
endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long
enough to get there is the problem.
Captain Overs
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Posts
- 875
Whine Lover
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2005
- Posts
- 1,497
GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2003
- Posts
- 3,939
Captain Overs said:
When management has lined their pockets with multi-million dollar parachutes while cutting your pay by almost half and taking away your pension, I'll guess you'll still whistle all the way to work with the same spring in your step. Just lucky to be flying for a livin', right?
capt. megadeth
Metal Momma!
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 2,898
capt. megadeth
Metal Momma!
- Joined
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- Posts
- 2,898
Charlie Brown
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2006
- Posts
- 339
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