Air Wisconsin pilots turn down pay cuts for 3rd time.

[WSurf]

Rightrudder,

I guess you haven't tried jumpseating on PDT, eh? You may not harbor a grudge against PDT but a significant percentage of their pilot group certainly dislikes Air Wisconsin. Maybe you forgot about us "stealing" their domicile at ORF...? In case you are unaware of Wsurf, I suggest you search for his previous posts. He is an immature presence on this board who resorts to namecalling when he can't provide a suitable argument.

No Piedmont person has a grudge against Air Wisconsin..... You are again a moron in thinking that!! You folks got hosed just like we did!! You had to move everyone to the east coast. We had to move people from Florida and Norfolk. So what's your point???
When have you had a problem with the jumpseat on PDT? If so, contract your jumpseat cordinator and we can fix the problem you had. Don't come on here and just whine about it.
Search my pevious post!!! Most of them have a sense of sarcasm!!! Something you just don't get!!!
You gotta be a newbie in the business!!! Good Luck!!!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Rightrudder,

I guess you haven't tried jumpseating on PDT, eh? You may not harbor a grudge against PDT but a significant percentage of their pilot group certainly dislikes Air Wisconsin. Maybe you forgot about us "stealing" their domicile at ORF...? In case you are unaware of Wsurf, I suggest you search for his previous posts. He is an immature presence on this board who resorts to namecalling when he can't provide a suitable argument.

Alright, I am going to throw the B.S. flag on this one...

I am a PDT captain who used to be based in ORF/PHF, and currently operate Dash 8's in and out of ORF on a nearly weekly basis. I can say with virtual certianty that NO Air Willy pilot has been denied the jumpseat or even harrassed based upon who he works for. Granted the dash is often weight limited (especially the -100), but we will move heaven and earth to try and get you on. Period, end of story.

AWACoff, if you feel you have been wrongly denied a ride, then take it up with your JS coordinator or even PM me the flight and date and I will refer it to ours. If you brought the same B.S. attitude you are displaying here to the airplane and you got hasseled, then you deserved it. I guess every airline has that "one percent."

Stop trying to find a fight between two airlines that isn't there. Or, do it in person in the LGA or PHL crew rooms. I look forward to the conversation.

By the way, Surf is a great guy who said nothing bad about Air Willy, and I too thank the Air Wisc guys for standing up and not backing down. Beers on me.

 

[sewerpiper]

If all pilot groups were like AirWhiskey this would be a much better job.

I thought it was interesting how the article mentioned how ACA and ZW got together and agreed on how they wouldn't undercut each other (2003 when UAL filed).

Why can't the rest of the MEC's do that?

Isn't that the defination of the word "Union"
Thats the problem with this crappy industry, there is no true union here. Everyone is protecting their own interests.

Screw you guys i'm going home

 

[OPECJet]

If any of you have been denied a jumpseat on PDT, its because the -100s are don't have a jumpseat.

The have a device that folds down between the seats to hold the torn and tattered MEL, captain's hat, and a lot of dust. There is even a seatbelt there to keep the dust in. The -300s on the other hand can almost always take a jumpseater.

If you feel you've been wronged with the PDT jumpseat, PM me. I'm on the PDT jumpseat committee and will see what we have to do to get it fixed.

As far as Surf goes (and it pains me to say anything nice about him), he's a good friend, good pilot, and almost as big a wise a$$ as myself. Calling him a flame baiter is rediculous.

 

[D'Angelo]

"Standing firm" today equals unemployment line tomorrow. Unfortunately the union manages to brainwash a lot of people. Its foolish to try and work with MECs to not undercut each other. Theres always someone out there looking out for their best intrests therefore we must all do the same.

 

[BoilerUP]

The union hasn't brainwashed anybody. It just so happens that ARW's union consists of a pilot group that is tired of being lied to and is 100% unwilling to do their job for less than they do now, and is unwilling to screw over future pilots based upon that carrot of growth.

How's that "paycut for growth" treating you at Comair, D? Oh thats right, you're not really a Comair pilot...

 

[rightrudder]

Rightrudder,

I guess you haven't tried jumpseating on PDT, eh? You may not harbor a grudge against PDT but a significant percentage of their pilot group certainly dislikes Air Wisconsin. Maybe you forgot about us "stealing" their domicile at ORF...? In case you are unaware of Wsurf, I suggest you search for his previous posts. He is an immature presence on this board who resorts to namecalling when he can't provide a suitable argument.

No I have not encountered any PDT pilots who were anything but friendly. Even if you do believe that they dislike us, posting comments like you did are certainly not going to help the situation. I hope that those reading realize the your comments are your own and do not reflect the Air Wisconsin pilot group. You might want to reflect on your own maturity when you resort to name calling.

 

[D'Angelo]

The union hasn't brainwashed anybody. It just so happens that ARW's union consists of a pilot group that is tired of being lied to and is 100% unwilling to do their job for less than they do now, and is unwilling to screw over future pilots based upon that carrot of growth.

How's that "paycut for growth" treating you at Comair, D? Oh thats right, you're not really a Comair pilot...

No worries here, just flyin the line waitin to see how BK all plays out. The paycuts havent taken effect yet remember. We are just waiting for the F/As to be dealt with and then we will be safe and sound with paycuts and new growth. Im sure it will take the judge a while to decide. These are definately exciting times though. Its not a matter of if but when a judge will void a union contract. Its exciting to be setting new ground and im glad to be a part of it at comair. Patience is all you need. Once all is said and done we will be in as good of a position as any to get new flying. Screw over future pilots? Please you have to watch out for yourself you can't worry about the future. You live for today, do whats best for you and worry about tomorrow later. This buisness of always trying to raise the bar is old and tired. People finally realize that the pre 9/11 contracts were simply outrageous. Our vote which was a majority btw was our way of admitting the pre 9/11 contracts were simply outrageous. Just look at the old mainline contracts. The unions voting in all those lavish outrageous contracts where the ones that really screwed future pilots.

 

[Fallingbrick]

Hey Boiler, try this:

This message is hidden because D'Angelo is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

Aahhh...Bliss! :beer:

 

[Sig]

You are just a flamebaiter. I'm guessing it was you that slowed to less than 100kts 8 miles out for 26 the other day. So sorry you couldn't force us to go around. Better luck next time...

Whoa, whoa, and whoa again. Billy's was a post with an inaccurate number. Yours was flame bait.

Get used to seeing that over the next month or so; lots of newhires, lots of INEXPERIENCED newhires that is, doing SOE (our version of IOE). So if somebody slowed to ref+20 after throwing out the anchor wayyy before GSI and they have any kind of headwind, you'll see that. I apologize for the wrench in the gears, but they have to play the game per the instructor.

Ya can't tell me it was a real problem; I've seen some pretty danged amazing stuff from the ground when you're slotting into 35-- I have no idea how you guys split the touchdown zone markers almost every time.

Back to the topic, AWESOME JOB on the AWAC pilot's part. Gee, I wonder what the 70 seat TP would be...

 

[BoilerUP]

Hey Boiler, try this:

This message is hidden because D'Angelo is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

Aahhh...Bliss! :beer:

Naah, its too entertaining to read a management/consultant type's "opinion" about how unions (not the pilots that make up the union, mind you, just 'unions') are the downfall of the entire aviation industry.

Leaving out golden parachutes to lame-duck upper managers, failure to charge enough to simply break even, and that whole failure to uphold fudiciary responsiblity thing all were simple oversights on D's part, I'm sure...

 

[D'Angelo]

Naah, its too entertaining to read a management/consultant type's "opinion" about how unions (not the pilots that make up the union, mind you, just 'unions') are the downfall of the entire aviation industry.

Leaving out golden parachutes to lame-duck upper managers, failure to charge enough to simply break even, and that whole failure to uphold fudiciary responsiblity thing all were simple oversights on D's part, I'm sure...

oversights? Hardly management has certainly made some bonehead moves in the past. If your telling me unions have no blame in this your lying. Just look at those ridiculous contracts that were negotiated pre 9/11. $300/hr to fly a 777 international, hardly work, and still get full credit each month is simply insanity. If they would have spread the wealth to the junior people a bit more and made more of a contract in the middle they wouldnt be in nearly as bad of shape. $1 billion / year certainly isnt something to sneeze at.

 

[surplus1]

No worries here, just flyin the line waitin to see how BK all plays out. The paycuts havent taken effect yet remember. We are just waiting for the F/As to be dealt with and then we will be safe and sound with paycuts and new growth. Im sure it will take the judge a while to decide. These are definately exciting times though. Its not a matter of if but when a judge will void a union contract. Its exciting to be setting new ground and im glad to be a part of it at comair. Patience is all you need. Once all is said and done we will be in as good of a position as any to get new flying. Screw over future pilots? Please you have to watch out for yourself you can't worry about the future. You live for today, do whats best for you and worry about tomorrow later. This buisness of always trying to raise the bar is old and tired. People finally realize that the pre 9/11 contracts were simply outrageous. Just look at the old mainline contracts. The unions voting in all those lavish outrageous contracts where the ones that really screwed future pilots.

I’ve been ignoring your many ludicrous posts simply because your level of thinking doesn’t warrant comment. There is however a limit and you’ve reached it.

Its exciting to be setting new ground and im glad to be a part of it at comair.

I don’t know what you’re “glad to be a part of” nor do I know any Comair pilot that would be glad to acknowledge even knowing you let alone agreeing with your rhetoric. There may be a few fellow outcasts who share your views but there is just no way “we” could filter 100% of the chaff from the wheat; and apparently you “fell through the cracks”. Truth is with your attitude you’re not a part of anything more than the undesirables.

Our vote which was a majority btw was our way of admitting the pre 9/11 contracts were simply outrageous.

Yes, our vote was part of a very slim majority of only 16. I was one of those who voted yes. It was NOT for the reasons you outline. In the next round my vote will not be the same if that TA is not significantly revised.

As you correctly point out, the concessions have NOT taken effect and hopefully they never will. The tentative agreement that was “approved” contains contingencies. The company has failed to meet those contingencies. That means, to me and to many others, that the tentative agreement is now null and void and will have to be re-negotiated.

When it is, the terms of any new TA had better not be the same as the terms of the last TA. If they are, they should not and must not be approved by the pilots. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me. There should not be a third “fool me”.

Due to the bankruptcy, some concessions may still be necessary but not the draconian and unjustified concessions contained in the now defunct TA. I thank our FA’s for providing us with another opportunity to take a second look at this company scam.

This time they had best come up with something rational and feasible or it should be voted down by the pilots. It is time to let our MEC know that this (no longer applicable) TA is not acceptable and they had best not attempt to renew that agreement without another ratification vote by the pilot group. Have no fear; the same thing will not “pass” for a second time.

Comair pilots cannot prevent Delta Air Lines from dismembering Comair with any level of concessions; they will do what they want to do regardless of what we do. So be it. While they’re doing it, there is no reason for us to accept the levels of compensation they have offered. It no longer cuts the mustard.

In June of 2005 Comair pilots gave the Company millions of dollars in concessions in exchange for specific performance on the part of the company. They have failed to comply with that agreement, which they told us would make us competitive enough not only to survive but to grow. If they told the truth, there is no need for more. If they lied, they will have to live with that lie. I’m willing to let them keep what they got in 2005 even though they have failed to honor that agreement, with some modifications. I’m not willing to just give them more of whatever they seek.

Every nickel of anything else they might want will have to be justified. Without such justification, which is sorely lacking to date, they should get no more than they already have.

Comair’s pre 9/11 contract was not “outrageous”. Some of it is incompatible with the current industry status, and we made those adjustments in mid 2005. However, the changes that Delta is demanding in 2006 are outrageous and unnecessary. The time has come for management to rethink its posture.

It is also time for Comair’s pilots to stop playing a game with constantly and arbitrarily changing rules. Game over.

 

[surplus1]

DiverDriver,

1. Would it be possible for you to tell us exactly what it is you're arbitrating?

2. Is there any way that you could send me an electronic copy of your current contract, including the changes you made in the restructuring agreement, and your pay scales? (PM for email address). I can't seem to find you pay scales for the CL-700 either.

Thanks.

 

[SkyNation]

ZW Pilots

congrats! I have a serious question, however. no flame intended whatsoever.

if you could go back, would you give up 1, 2 bucks an hour, or some other item to keep your bases, flying? are any of you now commuting to PHL, ORF or DCA instead of driving to your base where you live in DEN, ATW, or ORD? you stuck, and that is noble, but did you have to move your family, find new housing, make new friends, etc?

I'm trying to decide what is the sticking point? I know I'm oversimplifying things, but I'm wondering how it all shakes out.

what would you give up to maintain: (question to all pilots)

-growth
-bases
-current AC

$1/hr? $2? would you concede a 'B' scale? would you quit?

thanks for serious AND pithy replies ;-)

 

[Drill Sgt. Dad]

WSurf, on a lighter note, are you waiting for TarHeel's Basketball this fall?

 

[rtmcfi]

SkyNation-
No flame here. Look at the old ZW rates, vs. the current ones. I am sure it is posted on here somewhere. That is what they gave up. They got nothing in return. I really don't think that the pilot compensation makes or breaks a contract. It does make or break mgmts compensation. The more mgmnt squeezes out of labor, the more they have left over for themselves and the shareholders (if applicable.) I for one am done giving up anything to management. A line must be drawn in the sand somewhere.

 

[WSurf]

WSurf, on a lighter note, are you waiting for TarHeel's Basketball this fall?

Yea man! Hope to catch a couple of the Tarheel games!!!! How about that Carolina Hockey Team!!!

 

[DiverDriver]

"Standing firm" today equals unemployment line tomorrow. Unfortunately the union manages to brainwash a lot of people. Its foolish to try and work with MECs to not undercut each other. Theres always someone out there looking out for their best intrests therefore we must all do the same.

D... I dare you to quit Comair and go to GoJ3ts since you hate ALPA so much.

I triple dog dare you.

 

[DiverDriver]

DiverDriver,

1. Would it be possible for you to tell us exactly what it is you're arbitrating?

2. Is there any way that you could send me an electronic copy of your current contract, including the changes you made in the restructuring agreement, and your pay scales? (PM for email address). I can't seem to find you pay scales for the CL-700 either.

Thanks.

We filed a grievance when the first plane left United Express for US Air (when we were "harmed"). Our concessionary agreement said that we would take concessions ONLY when we had a fully effective agreement with United. We were told that we did by management and our concessions went into effect Oct. 1, 2003. When United put our flying up for bid it was quite a shock since we had a contract (or so we thought). They had not "assumed" the contract in bankruptcy (because our owners apparently refused to get 70 seaters as they believe it to only be a bandaid to the industry and no future). We also found out that the company had been getting paid virtually the same all along while we took a paycut. Now, some money was being put into escrow as "hurt me" money. Apparently it was to go back to United when they assumed our contract. If they didn't that money was to go to AWAC's owners CJT. Some of us think this was something they cooked up because they thought it might drag out a few months but they would end up with a new contract. I'm sure they never thought they'd be pushed out of United and caught red handed with a lot of dow. But suddently Eastshore Aviation appeared (the investment "wing" of AWAC) and plunked 125 million into US Air as debtor in possesion second only to the ATSB.

We want the arbitrator to find that we were lied to and mislead. We want backpay. And we want our old contract back. What the arbitrator will come up with is a whole nuther thread.