Air Tran Attrition?

[Jmoney]

Just wondering what the attrition rate is these days? Are there many folks left about to retire-what about losing guys to other airlines?
-Thx

 

[PCL_128]

We've lost about 65 guys so far this year to retirements and other airlines. The guys leaving are mostly going to SWA, FDX, and UPS, but a few leave for CAL or DAL.

 

[Lear70]

2-3 each month are for retirement (both Age 60 and early out for Medical reasons). We're only slated to lose about a dozen a year for Age 60 retirement for a long while which will, of course, go down dramatically if/when age 65 is passed but it's not enough to hurt upgrades substantially.

Figuring 15 aircraft deliveries per year, 6 CA's per aircraft, 12 F/O's (1 F/O to replace the guy upgrading, 1 to fly the new aircraft), plus attrition at 10 a month (conservatively) is 300 pilots a year needed to be hired.

That's rough math, but I only expect attrition to increase with all the Majors spooling up for 400-600 pilots per year per airline and another T.A. coming out soon that's likely to have 2 or 3 items "tweaked" but not enough done to make the junior people happy long-term with F/O rates at DOS being either THE lowest or next to the lowest in the Major Airline industry and upgrade moving into the 4-5 year range for my seniority, 6-7 for guys hired this year.

 

[The Victors]

Do you expect this new TA to pass if it's basically the same as the last one considering the past outrage?

 

[UALX727]

The new T.A. will go down in flames.

I haven't talked to any guys on the line that are going to vote yes for it. There are just too many items that have to be changed. "Tweaking" will not cut it.

 

[twepilot]

the rumors I've heard..Avg day gone, core credit gone...an improvement in the health coverage of some type, and a couple other things that I can't remember right off hand..

RV

 

[Ty Webb]

The wording in the document itself is intentionally vague and subject to future reinterpretations, so, even if they gave us everything we asked for, I woould still recommend voting no.

.

 

[BR715]

Even if they did give up average day and core credit I guarantee we gave up something thay was important to us. Word is that the NPA has the TA at the office and they are reviewing it. I don't know why they are, they will send it for vote anyway. It sure would be nice to get an update from these guys.

 

[Ronnieflies737]

Maybe this time the NPA is actually reviewing it so they can say they read it this time. Obviously they did not read the previous version.

 

[Lear70]

the rumors I've heard..Avg day gone, core credit gone...an improvement in the health coverage of some type, and a couple other things that I can't remember right off hand..

RV

I've heard the same thing.

There's plenty of other stuff that has to go away, including the loss of Door-Close, the almost 15% 1st year PAY CUT for new-hires, Scope, jumpseat letter that can be taken back at any time, Health insurance premiums AND copays that can go up every year, and Section 5 is just a completely and total loss with all the items such as sick fly-back and the commuter clause at the discretion of the PILOT, not Crew Scheduling, and I'm not even going to start with the abuse the Reserve Pilots will have to endure (up to 3 YEARS for newly-upgraded Captains).

I can't imagine they got ALL of those things. I have my personal list of minimum items I have to see to even CONSIDER it, but I imagine I'll be "tweaking" the section-by-section rebuttal VERY soon and getting it to as many people as possible.

Ty's right, there's so many new and vague sections that it's just RIPE for re-interpretation and even MORE grievances than we already have which, if memory serves, we're about 4 yeas behind on already.

As far as the NPA reviewing it, all the BoD members have the section-by-section rebuttal and the memory of the hostile road shows. I'd be very surprised if this came out with anything better than a "neutral" recommendation and I imagine at least one or two BoD members won't even give that much.

 

[FCNelson]

Are applications to AirTran slowing down?
Do you think AirTran will drop the 500 turbine PIC 121 requirement to adjust to the changing pilot job market?

I'd like to apply there but can't, since my PIC time isn't at a 121 operation.....

Thanks - and good luck with contract negotiations.

FCN

 

[AA717driver]

Wad it up and throw it back across the table.

You don't take concessions during the good times. End of discussion.

Good luck. TC

 

[UALX727]

Looks like they are short 737 Captains. I've been called every day this week trying to get me to pick up some flying to help. I just let it go to voicemail.

After that concessionary TA, do they really think guys will be willing to help out? WTFO???? Hell, one day they called and were offering double-time.

 

[wood pecker]

Why are you willing to work for a place that people are leaving? This TA will completely change everything that is good about flying for AAI. I know you are trying to find a good flying job and you are just curious as we all were when first applying.
As far as the PIC, check Delta as I do not think they require PIC. I say Delta if you want ATL like AAI. This JAN they will get another 1-6% raise. They are very short right now and my friends are making more than me their first year than me flying my ass off my second year at AAI.
I wish our NPA would look at how the reserves are being paid at Delta. They can fly on their day off for 1.5 or 2x pay and keep their day off for the future = 120 hour credits.
AAI has a good credit system but will vanish in the next contract = more work and less money.
At Delta you will not have to upgrade to make good money as you will at AAI plus if we get RJs the top pay for a 12 year CA is @$100 hour.

The good about AAI is that I feel safe if another bad thing happens in the future b/c we have very low cost and JL/RF are both very good at their task making money = record profits. I am mad at my union not the company b/c they still believe they are getting a good contract. Good luck.

 

[Joey Bayonne]

Why are you willing to work for a place that people are leaving? This TA will completely change everything that is good about flying for AAI

.

This is exactly why we as the pilot group need to fight for a good contract. If this "new" TA is not acceptable, then we must vote it down and start whatever process we need to get negotiations going again. I'd say most guys/gals here want a contract that will allow the company to prosper but at the same time more and more people are realizing that this TA is far from what we deserve.

 

[SkiFishFly]

If this TA passes - I expect attrition to increase.
I don't think I want to put up with regional airline work rules for the 2 years or so that I would sit reserve if I took first available Capt slot. FO pay is too low to sit an extra year or so as an FO to await a better schedule once I upgrade.
I'm even considering applying to Delta...

 

[njcapt]

If this TA passes - I expect attrition to increase.
I don't think I want to put up with regional airline work rules for the 2 years or so that I would sit reserve if I took first available Capt slot. FO pay is too low to sit an extra year or so as an FO to await a better schedule once I upgrade.
I'm even considering applying to Delta...

Fear that the TA would pass was one of the more major factors that convinced me to leave. I saw upgrade getting farther away all the time (mergers, relaxed work rules, deferred orders) and didn't dig paying $400 a month for insurance for the wife and me. Having to tolerate the clueless ramblings of coach and Bill Talton didn't help, either.

 

[-9Capt]

the rumors I've heard..Avg day gone, core credit gone...an improvement in the health coverage of some type, and a couple other things that I can't remember right off hand..

RV

I heard just the opposite.

Core block still there and 4.5 avg day still there

Guess we'll know soon enough.

 

[twepilot]

if thats true it'll save me time and effort reading the rest of the document...we shall see.

RV

 

[Lear70]

Core block is an immediate show-stopper. That combined with the door close is an average 15 minute hit, AT LEAST for everyone.

The way they work is a cumulative hit - core block is bad enough by itself but, honestly, the loss of door close isn't as big of an item without core block to go with it. It automatically GUARANTEES that 50% of the legs you fly will be hit with a door close loss. I'm not exaggerating, by purely definition and how it's figured, HALF of your flights will suffer a pay loss.

Not interested. I'll keep current book and forego the $6 per hour raise, thankyouverymuch.

 

[ATLDRVR]

4.5 avg day still there. 100 seat airplane payscale has been removed and I am not exactly sure the adjustments to the scope clause. Core is there but from what I am hearing after 1 year can be eliminated by the union or the compnay.

 

[Afterprop]

Why are we even wasting our time . . . we spent 2 1/2 years meeting . . . and then 3 months negotiating for a POS TA that should have been put out of its misery 8 weeks ago. Now, after just another 3 weeks at the table this document is supposed to do just what?

I think not . . . the past 6 weeks have been a complete waste of time, with the exception of the recall issues. That train cannot move fast enough to suit me. The other possible glimmer of light is MS's realization of just what that light at the end of the tunnel is. Too bad most of the others suffered from a chronic case of group think (maybe they spent too much time with the company's negotiating team?).

 

[Lear70]

If that's true, I'm ready to kill it. Send it to vote ASAP...

 

[Pancho]

I just heard a rumor that MB our old lead negotiator may be running for president after we recall AP and MS.

 

[Lear70]

I just heard a rumor that MB our old lead negotiator may be running for president after we recall AP and MS.

Wow... that would make 4 candidates that I know of, 5 if Noel throws his hat in the ring.

I'm a bit confused, as the copy of the bylaws that I have saved on my computer says that the V.P. slot will be APPOINTED by Devaney if the recall is successful for both Pres and V.P., because the V.P. term has less than 6 months remaining.

Then I go on today to look at the exact wording again and it says that, except for the NPA President, the position will remain vacant until the next normal election?

The bylaws keep changing on me, or I simply mis-read them the first time. Probably the latter,,,

If they DO appoint someone, according to the bylaws on the website, that person has no vote on the BoD.

The V.P. is supposed to, by default, become acting President of the NPA until the new President election is done, then they go back to being V.P. until their term is up at the end of the year again, then elections again. But with no V.P. to do that, who becomes acting NPA President? Devaney?

This year, it's the V.P. slot, as well as B.S. and M.G. who are up and I hear they're not running again so those slots will be vacant.

Going to be a lot of turnover in the NPA this year, almost every office except for Rico's and Devaney's if the recall goes through (which I expect it to).

 

[ATLDRVR]

Just got an email and it looks like the NPA board is recommending a no vote for the TA.

 

[FIREMAN]

"I voted for the war before I voted against it. "


What a bunch of pollsters trying to save thier hides.

 

[j41driver]

What a bunch of pollsters trying to save thier hides.

I believe it is too late for that.

 

[Lear70]

Notice that it wasn't a "unanimous" Vote No decision...

I wonder who voted "Neutral" or "Vote Yes"...?

Looks like they're going to put everything out there at once, including the recall of AP and MS as separate items (you can recall one without the other).

No large hurry right now, the Mediator will put us on ice until mid- to late-January anyway, and I expect the resignation of the entire NC after the T.A. is killed anyway (they know they'd get fired with a new NPA Pres in office, so I'm sure they'll go under "their own terms").

It wouldn't surprise me greatly to see AP resign right about the time the vote results come out for similar reasons and come back to the line.

Get out your VOTE NO items, anyone wants a sticker, email me at [email protected]

Please don't send me a PM, I can't keep my mailbox clear...

 

[SkiFishFly]

Why the emphasis on "company's best and final offer" term from the NPA email?
Is there some meaning in these words that we should take note of?