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Age limit will increase to 67 by years end.

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The worn-out gummers approaching senility like to lie and present their replacements as low-time CFIs when the truth is that their replacements are high time regional jet pilots and mainline guys who have experience multiple furloughs while the

Lying

Greedy

Craven

Cowardly

Effeminately scared

old men desperately try to hang on to the left seat far beyond their useful years.

What a bunch of p-ssies.

Shoulda saved up your bucks, old man. Not my problem if you have to eat ramen in the nursing home.

Old fools.
 
The worn-out gummers approaching senility like to lie and present their replacements as low-time CFIs when the truth is that their replacements are high time regional jet pilots and mainline guys who have experience multiple furloughs while the

Lying

Greedy

Craven

Cowardly

Effeminately scarf

old men desperately try to hang on to the left seat far beyond their useful years.

What a bunch of p-ssies.

Shoulda saved up your bucks, old man. Not my problem if you have to eat ramen in the nursing home.

Old fools.


Seems like it is your problem.
 
I contrast your description and views of Senior Captains with the way I viewed the WWII,
Korean and Vietnam era Captains I have flown with.

Flying with those guys are some of the greatest memories of my Career even with all the bankruptcies, furloughs and strikes.

I'll take my memories over yours any day......
 
I contrast your description and views of Senior Captains with the way I viewed the WWII,
Korean and Vietnam era Captains I have flown with.

Flying with those guys are some of the greatest memories of my Career even with all the bankruptcies, furloughs and strikes.

I'll take my memories over yours any day......

I flew a lot of those guys myself. You better be real careful before you assume exactly what they probably think of guys like you.
 
+1 with this post
Many of us have been more than patient and rolled with the punches thru more than a decade of upheaval. I can assure you we have amassed thousands of hours of experience and more than paid our dues. These pilots have enjoyed the advantage of movement provided by age 60 and then gained yet another 5 years to get their house in order. In my opinion that is more than enough time. While I respect those who have come before I ultimately have an obligation to provide the benefits of my hard work to my own family. It has been a pleasure flying with many of them and I have learned a lot but the time has come to move on. Kwick you paint with a very broad brush implying that we are impatient and greedy for wanting exactly the same benefit that the generation before us has enjoyed. I disagree completely with your assessment and would challenge you do a thorough review of the majority (there will always be exceptions) of the previous generations careers and then compare it with what the majority of what this generation of pilots have had to endure. Once complete could you again please share with us how you think WE are the greedy ones.

Great post +1
 
I think it would be interesting to know if the 4 [four] guys who got put out of work when age 60 first became the limit decades ago, would think it was right to put 4000+ pilots out of work to raise the age to 65?
 
I say out with the old expensive parts and in with the new inexpensive parts. Medical insurance is through the roof for senior citizens especially as a group!
 
Livinthesim,

You are the problem with this Country and this Profession....

Not them.

kwick;2409756 Good interviewers can spot malcontents.[/QUOTE said:
Talk about malcontents and what's wrong with this Country and profession... Where is the appreciation for the fact the age just got raised to 65?!
 
I hope they institute 70 years old just to watch guys like you have their heads explode.

Then just about the time the 70 year olds start retiring, they train Rampers to fly UAV's.......
 
I've had friends discriminated against in this profession because they were black.

I've had friends discriminated against because they were female.

I had bad eyesight, but was correctable to 20/20, and I was discriminated against.

There is always some redneck or neo-nazi that thinks discrimination is a good thing and yearn to profit from it.

Get there on your own, not at the expense of someone else.
 
Most of the guys I flew with who were approaching 65 were mentally past their prime. Their either lacked confidence in their abilities or they took far too many risks, not caring about the outcome because, afterall, they've made their millions and this job is just icing on the cake for now.

One guy couldn't be bothered with going around weather because it was too much effort to coordinate with ATC, he flew through the tops of buildups and rocked the FAs in back. He even snapped at me when I would call and warn them to sit down. On one flight my daughter, who was non-revving with us, told me how people were screaming in back. He made her so scared after that flight she wouldn't step on an airplane for 6 months afterwards.

That same guy told me he advocated going below minimums when I took a Captain to the safety committee for doing just that (busting mins). His words, "You do what you have to to make it all work... blah, blah". I told him he needs to retire now with that mindset. Minimums are minimums, rules are rules. This isn't a flying club. He and I were friends but he told everyone in the base how I was disrespectful for telling him that cause he's a Captain and I wasn't at the time.

Another guy simply had no flare technique whatsoever.... he would just add a ton of power and slam it on. 3 pointer every time. Then in the taxi-in he would go on and on about how the winds screwed him up or ATC, whatever. He busted his PC and subsequently cried about it (literally). He put in his papers to retire because he knew it was time to go but the CPO refused to accept it. They just gave him more training and got him done and back on the line. The FO on that ride was PISSED because he got an unsat basically for the Captain's lacking skills. He had to get a PC every 3 months as a result. He wrote letters about the Captain's performance, or lacktherof, etc. Nobody listened. All these guys who are gumming their way into an unsafe situation, you can write them up all you want... between the company, the union and an inept FAA, nothing will happen to them.

Another guy would plow right through thunderstorms to make schedule. He would do that with other FOs. I wouldn't let him do that with me. But it makes for a long night when you have to police such ignorance. He sent more than one FA to the hospital during his career.

Another guy put up window shades (over cockpit windows) while the FAA was on the jumpseat. Telling the FAA guy: "I'm not going to sit here with the sun blasting me like that." He was 64. Are you kidding me? With the FAA in your jumpseat? He's been written up and sent for "Fitness for Duty" eval numerous times. Each time the union saved his job. That's a good thing, unions protecting us, but sometimes they go too far.

Most of these guys don't give two-shts about what their behavior will do to their FOs career. I let it be known right away that I wouldn't tolerate such sloppy airmanship so they made a wide berth when flying with me. But there are plenty of FOs who are non-confrontational, etc. and let the gummers get away with far too much. Factor in new-hires are too scared to speak up, because they have to get a pilot evaluation report completed, and you're talking a huge compromise in safety.

A lot of you say, well why didn't you write him up? Why did you sit there? I didn't sit there, I battle these guys every time they step outside SOP. But that gets exhaustive. I don't come in to work to get stressed out and fight. And the Captain is the final authority, like it or not. So it's not a safe system to just give blanket approval to fly to whatever age. I never agreed with 65 but that ship has sailed. Now they want 67, 70, etc. I wouldn't allow a 70 year old doc to operate on me, I don't care how much experience he has. Same goes for pilots.

Look, anyone can fly when it's clear and a million. Heck my non-tech oriented mother could do it. We get paid the big bucks for when the proverbial stuff hits the fan, as it did on two of my flights last week. I would've have hated to be in either of those situations with a gummer. A lot of these guys (sure not all, but a lot) simply aren't operating on all cylinders. Until we come up with a system to check all that, present system of joke medicals and PC/ line checks done by their buddies doesn't cut it, there needs to be an age limit.

Besides, the youth of America have huge employment issues. There are no jobs because nobody is retiring anymore... because we've built a selfish society propelled by consumerist greed. Got to have the latest car, gadget, boat, Ipad, Iphone, etc. So must keep working to pay for all the Chinese crap we buy.

When you turn 65. Step aside. Stop being so greedy.

That goes for all professions. Retire gracefully.
 
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True. I've had my share of "sleepers" too. They are generally ok to fly with but it's pretty easy to see they are struggling with either memory or fatigue. It would suck to have all the top FO lines filled by these guys who just can't hang it up though. Imagine the top 500 lines filled with the gummers.

Better than the top 500 captains.

At least they could be evaluated by other captains who can then recommend they hang it up

How is it done at say a netJets? Fairly big list- lots of old pilots- how do they know when it's time? Do you end up forcing them out
 
I contrast your description and views of Senior Captains with the way I viewed the WWII,
Korean and Vietnam era Captains I have flown with.

Flying with those guys are some of the greatest memories of my Career even with all the bankruptcies, furloughs and strikes.

I'll take my memories over yours any day......

I hope you see the irony in valuing your memories of vets who retired at 60 over the memories YOU ARE CREATING FOR US.


I AGREE. 100%.
 
I hope you see the irony in valuing your memories of vets who retired at 60 over the memories YOU ARE CREATING FOR US.


I AGREE. 100%.

Mocking, vilifying and denigrating your fellow pilots solely because you are upset at a federal government rule that is delaying your ability to upgrade.

Oh yes, I do see the irony, especially from you who see's himself as the "why can't we all just get along" type of guy.........

Until your ox is gored......then you revert to the meanest, nastiest, jerk around.

Yes, I DO see the irony. And I am looking forward to your 60 th birthday when you hang it up... But I bet you won't. Because guys like you are hypocrites.
 
The top ten reasons you know you are flying with a captain that is over 60 (65)....

  1. He / she asks you if you have the communal Preparation H tube "over there"..
  2. The flight attendant delivers the new trash bag and a bib...
  3. You ask the Captain if he/she would like to go out for dinner after you check into the hotel. The Captain responds..."Depends" (the response wasn't non-committal, he/she was simply deciding whether or not to wear a pair of "Depends").
  4. When going over the next IFR approach, the Captain sports a new pair of "Quad-focals", and is impressed that he/she can now easily read the "fine print".
  5. While deplaning, a spare walker was left behind next to the gate checked baggage. The Captain grabs it and yells "Dibs!".
  6. In between flights, you and the Captain go to Starbucks for a pick-me-up. The Captain orders a "Prune Latte".
  7. The Captain's bag of snacks seems to have an inordinate number of treasures with "extra fiber".
  8. Although it's pretty warm out, the Captain breaks out a sweater to "break the chill".
  9. Whilst taxiing VERY SLOW, you think to yourself that the Captain is demonstrating leadership by example - solidarity for a better contract. Then the Captain exclaims....."Whew! We we're going too FAST!!".
  10. During the trip you and the Captain share family backgrounds. The Captain breaks out pictures of GREAT GRAND CHILDREN!!:eek::eek:
 
The top ten reasons you know you are flying with a captain that is over 60 (65)....

  1. He / she asks you if you have the communal Preparation H tube "over there"..
  2. The flight attendant delivers the new trash bag and a bib...
  3. You ask the Captain if he/she would like to go out for dinner after you check into the hotel. The Captain responds..."Depends" (the response wasn't non-committal, he/she was simply deciding whether or not to wear a pair of "Depends").
  4. When going over the next IFR approach, the Captain sports a new pair of "Quad-focals", and is impressed that he/she can now easily read the "fine print".
  5. While deplaning, a spare walker was left behind next to the gate checked baggage. The Captain grabs it and yells "Dibs!".
  6. In between flights, you and the Captain go to Starbucks for a pick-me-up. The Captain orders a "Prune Latte".
  7. The Captain's bag of snacks seems to have an inordinate number of treasures with "extra fiber".
  8. Although it's pretty warm out, the Captain breaks out a sweater to "break the chill".
  9. Whilst taxiing VERY SLOW, you think to yourself that the Captain is demonstrating leadership by example - solidarity for a better contract. Then the Captain exclaims....."Whew! We we're going too FAST!!".
  10. During the trip you and the Captain share family backgrounds. The Captain breaks out pictures of GREAT GRAND CHILDREN!!:eek::eek:
And if things work out for you, you too may be old some day. For many of pilot friends they never got to be old. And you will be thankful that you can still eat the high fiber snacks, as opposed to facing Colan Cancer. And if you are not using Prep H, then you don't have enough hours in the sit yet. BTW I think the age should raised to 75, then I would have chance to get one of those great CRJ jobs.
icon26.gif
 
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And if things work out for you, you too may be old some day. For many of pilot friends they never got to be old. And you will be thankful that you can still eat the high fiber snacks, as opposed to facing Colan Cancer. And if you are not using Prep H, then you don't have enough hours in the sit yet. BTW I think the age should raised to 75, then I would have chance to get one of those great CRJ jobs.
icon26.gif

Relax Francis, I already am "old". I've been getting mailings from AARP for years. Waking up and making noises that my dad used to make. Enjoying a nice bowl of figs (I actually do like them). If I knew I was going to live this long, I would have treated my body a lot better! :D
 
Mocking, vilifying and denigrating your fellow pilots solely because you are upset at a federal government rule that is delaying your ability to upgrade.

It didn't just delay upgrades, it ruined careers and families. How many more must be ruined for the sake of a few more Corvettes? How much is ever enough?
 
Ruined careers and families? Really?

Drama Queen to say the least......

If moving the Retirement Age from 60 to 65 ruined your career or family, I would venture to say they were already a mess.
 
I would not want my career to benefit based on discrimination against others based
on race, religion or age or gender.

Police officers have to retire at a certain age. Also, you can't become President of the United States unless you are at least 35 years old.( Article 2 of the Constitution). Isn't that age discrimination? Yeah, it is.

The main reason it changed from age 60 to 65 is because ICAO forced the FAA's hand due to a larger pilot shortage in Europe. When the Euopean LCCs expanded, there were very few other pilots available, primarily because it is even more cost prohibitive there than it is here, resulting in a shortage. Europe started to allow age 65, and some of those senior pilots at airlines like Turkish Air had pilots over age 60 flying widebodies to the US.

If there has to be an age increase, I would hope it goes like Canada's--- which did increase it to age 70 (I don't want 70 at all, btw). For them, at 65 you have to go to the right seat of a narrowbody or cruise officer on a widebody (with no takeoffs or landings--on widebody). Bad overall (especially for newhires), but it preserves upgrades.


Bye Bye----General Lee
 
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Ruined careers and families? Really?

Drama Queen to say the least......

If moving the Retirement Age from 60 to 65 ruined your career or family, I would venture to say they were already a mess.

You do know that legacy airlines hired in anticipation of retirements that one day never came- and then immediately furloughed those they'd just hired within the year? You know that, right?

Many of those were forced to accept recall after their 9/11 furloughs, bypassing as long as they could- leaving good $80k jobs to go back- just to be jobless-

I know 3 who's wives made them choose after that: aviation or their marriage.

You know that's what the rule change did to many, right? Please tell me you haven't convinced yourself that this rule change didn't f^ck over thousands? It's not all about SWA FOs who didn't get to upgrade as fast- I don't feel bad for them either- but it furloughed thousands at every other airline- and it caused stagnation almost everywhere else-
 
Mocking, vilifying and denigrating your fellow pilots solely because you are upset at a federal government rule that is delaying your ability to upgrade.
im not "upset" at my situation at all- and certainly not overly concerned about an upgrade- I love SWA and would rather retire here in the right seat than work anywhere else- just dont pretend the rule change didn't put a whole lot of very experienced middle aged pilots in a real bad spot- that's you being the jerk if you don't see that

Oh yes, I do see the irony, especially from you who see's himself as the "why can't we all just get along" type of guy.........

Until your ox is gored......then you revert to the meanest, nastiest, jerk around.

Yes, I DO see the irony. And I am looking forward to your 60 th birthday when you hang it up... But I bet you won't. Because guys like you are hypocrites.
haha- I'm pretty sure no one on FI views me that way- ;) but I promise I don't take this site as seriously as you do apparently-

But if you're worried about a few words on a screen- you're right- I pull no punches, so I'd suggest not trying to "gore my ox"
 
Wave,

We had our DO make that decesion in the corporate world. A lot of old retired guys at the fractionals. They had a lot of experience, but it was challenging envoriment for them. I saw and flew with guys that where out to lunch. Some where 60years old and Couldn't even do their job nor fly in to challenging environments. The SA level was so poor, the young guys where baby sitting all the time.

What the FAA needs to do is ask all the fractional pilots about this issue. I guarantee that they would say the same thing. If this goes to say 70, I want captain hazardous duty pay. It's not a discrimination thing. It's the mind losing the capacity to function. It is a SAFETY issue.
 

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