Age 65 Stinks

[Fubijaakr]

Strike's over. Get over it.

Strike's never over for SCABS.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Nice to know a bill which has affected the lives of many guys on the street now was passed with no debate. Everyone of the age 65 guys I remind them to think about the guy on the street they replaced.

 

[Flopgut]

Strike's never over for SCABS.

Please explain: Regarding age 65, we're suppose to "get over it". But the strike is "never over for the SCABS"? I refuse to talk of either of these while at work because I fail to see the difference, frankly. Strikers (like Prater) want to all of us to believe that scabs did something wrong but working past 60 is just fine. It's BS dude. The only difference I see is that even Frank Lorenzo would have identified the need to balance the seniority affects of a seniority situation in flux (strike or 65). When guys like Prater came off strike he didn't get to bid his full seniority, and the planes, lines and pay all got balanced out. I'm not saying that's a good thing necessarily but the seniority is in fact very much the reason these age 60+ guys are taking what they are!!

What I'm saying is: given what we know about Lorenzo compared to the fact that Prater is supposed to be our strongest advocate, the very unfortunate result is Prater is WORSE than Lorenzo. Tell me where I'm wrong?

 

[xjhawk]

Sometimes you must do what is right even if it hurts. Stop your crying Imagine if you were stuck at a regional with no where to go? It was right to correct what was wrong in the first place. What ALPA needs to do is stop fighting the bad fights (like how much time and money was spent fighting the age 65 change for crying babies like you) and fight the good fight like fixing the pathetic pay for new pilots or even QOL for everyone. Hmmm imagine when someone has been sitting reserve for 5-6 years, do you think that person is happy that every contract has great scheduling provisions for line holding but those at the bottom can sit 8 hours a day, up to ten days a month on ready reserve and get no extra pay! Wonderful and that with a crew room with 15 chairs for over 800 crew members!

 

[Hamburger]

Strike's never over for SCABS.

I couldn't agree more. I don't intend on ever forgetting what SCABS, 65ers, USAPA, etc have done to their fellow pilots.

 

[MECH]

I got to enjoy flying with one the over sixty crowd. He should have stepped aside at sixty. We flew just over 20 hours on a 4 day trip. He fell asleep every single leg. Of the 20 hours of flying was awake for 12 of them. Flying into EWR we had a 20 knot x-wind. The non revs in the back came up to ask what had happened.

It was like doing IOE with a new hire, but the new hire was your boss.

On the flip side I have also flown with some guys, that are over sixty, that have been great. I have learned a lot from each of them. It always up to the individual.

 

[labbats]

The difference in age 60+ pilots is that they are working for the toys and the mistakes. The rest of us are working to pay the bills.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Age 65 is age discrimination. There should not be a maximum age as long as a pilot can pass the medical and the check rides. It would only be fair to all if the age limit on pilots is eliminated. This will happen eventually. If the pay scale continues as it is, every pilot will need to work until they die so as to pay their bills. The way things are now, pilots will not be able to ever save enough money to "retire" at any age; so, the result is to just keep working to earn a living. That is the futrue of the pilot profession.

 

[zonker]

Age 65 is age discrimination. There should not be a maximum age as long as a pilot can pass the medical and the check rides. It would only be fair to all if the age limit on pilots is eliminated. This will happen eventually. If the pay scale continues as it is, every pilot will need to work until they die so as to pay their bills. The way things are now, pilots will not be able to ever save enough money to "retire" at any age; so, the result is to just keep working to earn a living. That is the futrue of the pilot profession.

A first class medical is a joke at most AME offices, and a great travesty of the entire 65 debacle is that the standards were not changed.

If there is one positive, it's that you missed the cut! Enjoy the street Gramps! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[avbug]

Not one of us in this profession is going to make a fortune. I mean, in real terms there isn't much difference between retiring with $1 million vs. $2million. We're all going to reach an age where the dollars don't matter. Being well off in this environment is not going to be all it's cracked up to be. Before long we're going to see opinions change on this issue across the board. Especially in this profesion, where the generational theft is magnified by seniority. Those of you who delight in knowing that working to 65 is denying another a chance more than you actually need to work are going to find yourself wishing you had acted more admirably.

I know a lot of real good guys who are scabs. Most of them would give back every dollar they ever made if they could get that stink off of them. You'll be the same way Avbug. That's if you were ever worth a squirt of pi$$ to begin with.

I'm a scab now, am I? Which picket line is it that I've crossed, exactly? So much vitriol, so much venom...and sooooo unprofessional. You wear your stripes on your sleeve, I see. Not on your shoulder.

Seniority is not theft.

How increadibly arrogant of you to presume that by one man keeping his job, he is denying a job to another. You speak of acting admirably by giving up one's job so that another might have a chance. What utter nonsense!

Should you give up your job now, today, this moment, because someone else could be making a living doing your job, instead? Hardly. Should I give up mine? Hardly.

You don't know me. You don't know my age. You hurl juvinile 14 year old insults and resort to name calling...for what?

I've never crossed a picket line. I've never stolen another's job. I've never been given anything at any point along the way. It's all been earned. Hard earned, at that. Those who think they're entitled to what I've earned had best learn to earn theselves. Over the years I've been burned, cut, shot, crushed, and dealt with fires, explosions, raging passengers, leaking cargo, and freezing nights in the middle of nowhere. Forced landings, stuck controls, no-notice furloughs, and somewhere in there, homeless and without a dime to my name. More than once. Over 60 moves over the years in pursuit or work. Domestic and international. Workin war zones, out of war zones, and in places that make war zones look pleasant. Earned, you see. From crop dusting as a teenager to where I am now, to where ever I may be tomorrow...earned every step of the way. You wish to simply take it? Neither you, nor any other alive, has the money, the power, or the authority to take those experiences away. Most importantly, you haven't the right, and I'm not giving it to you.

I highly doubt you want what I've got...this makes your venom all the more pathetic and laughable. If you're jealous of me, you've got serious problems of your own, and I pity you. You really want my life? Given your sense of entitlement and self-aggrandizement, I doubt you would, or that you could possibly handle it. This is fine. Don't, however, attempt to tell me that I owe you anything. I don't owe you a job, I don't owe you a wage. I don't owe you a retirement. I don't owe you my seat in the cockpit. I owe you nothing.

Nobody else owes you anything either. You want it? You earn it. Simply shut up, and earn it. Until that time, clearly you've nothing more to offer here.

 

[The Prussian]

******

 

[Flopgut]

Avbug: There may not have been a picket line, but if you were/are in favor of 65, then you very much campaigned for someone else's job! How do we know this? The rule was written to allow those over 60 to come back if they wanted to, but they had to be square with giving up seniority. That being the case, the number of pilots who could have returned that did so is so close to zero it is beyond any argument whether or not it was about seniority. Age 65 or a strike? Both are forms of seniority aggression. Period.

A perfect example of this just showed up on this thread. Undaunted Flyer made the claim that if he missed the exact date to keep seniority he would come back without it as a new hire. Well, he missed the cut by no more than a few days. He could have come back and not even gone non-current. He didn't. He didn't want it without the seniority. He was just as dramatic as you post and he couldn't live up to his claims. (I think he's decided to file a lawsuit instead) I got little doubt you're no different.

I don't want what you have. (although I do hope you have plenty) That includes your problems. You can work longer now so get your money together and don't be a burden on us anymore.

 

[The Prussian]

Avbug: There may not have been a picket line, but if you were/are in favor of 65, then you very much campaigned for someone else's job!

Flopgut, give it a rest. You obviously use a different side of your brain than many of us do. How did you get there...how does entitlement creep into anybody's mindset?

I feel that avbug's post was one of the most powerful and well stated posts I've seen on FI.

Kudos, avbug!

 

[avbug]

You can work longer now so get your money together and don't be a burden on us anymore.

I'm a burden on you? You really think so? How, exactly? You assume far too much.

How do you propose to assert that those who stay past 60 are "scabs," yet at the same time complain that those who return after 60 must give up seniority? This is non-sequitur. It makes no sense.

I campaigned for no-one else's job. I have taken no-one else's job. Yes, I'm in favor of pilots being allowed to work until they are 65 years old. I'm in favor of pilots being able to work as long as they are physically able. I have no problem with this, and support the concept, and the legislation, and the regulation, whole heartedly. I did not campaign for it, but I certainly support it.

That being the case, the number of pilots who could have returned that did so is so close to zero it is beyond any argument whether or not it was about seniority.

Then what, exactly, is your problem? You're worried that people aren't moving out of the way fast enough for you? Certainly not that those over 60 returned to take jobs away...as clearly you've just stated that the number who might have done this is "so close to zero...". No, you're not worried about pilots over 60 taking jobs away, at all.

You're worried about pilots over 60 that don't get out of the way in order for you to move up the seniority ladder faster. You're worried about what they've got. You want it. You want others to retire so you can have their job. It's not at all about others having your job. It's all about you wanting what others have, and being upset you can't have it, or have it so quickly. It's greed. Pure, filthy greed. You're the guilty one. You covet. You want what's not yours, and in your guilt, you improperly use the English language to label those who have what you want as "scabs."

Your education, your understanding, and your professionalism lacks in this matter. Again, you must earn what you want. Your sense of entitlement falls short of reason. Your attitude of "get out of the way, old man, I want what you have" has no basis in reality. Nor in the law.

Deal with it.

 

[Flopgut]

Want to know what someone who thinks like me believes is a better way?

www.pilotpensionnow.com

If guys like you would have spent your years at this job supporting/developing something like this there wouldn't be all these problems. But you didn't. Your generation decided being scabs, acting like scabs or otherwise "earning" for yourselves was much more important.

I'm not the "entitlement" type you think I am, but I'm sure my moral imperative is equally distgusting to someone like you. I believe everybody should get a fair deal. It's not enough to hoard for ourseles, we should try to help others.

So why don't you get off your a$$ and be part of a solution?

 

[avbug]

My generation? Exactly which generation is it to which you *think* I belong? You know nothing about me...yet make assumption after assumption.

You're clearly not well versed in the meaning of the word "scab," and to educate you is equally as clearly a waste of time. Enjoy your ignorance, but you should at least be made aware that misusing the term not only undermines your credibility (difficult to do, for you, whereas there's so little to begin with), it also makes you look foolish. You need little help in that department.

If one doesn't support your own pet cause, then one is a scab, now? Working to age 65 makes on a scab, so you say. Failing to campaign for your own pet cause makes one a scab. Perhaps even underlying a bandaid makes one a scab...you are rather liberal with your application of that word.

You can paint the picture any way you like. You're filled with greed. You've asserted that those who work past age 65 get too much...they shouldn't be allowed to work that long. After all...you want it, instead. Same topic, no matter what kind of silk dress you try to hang over it...you say the same thing. Move over old man, I want your job. Over and over again.

Let's be clear. You can't have it.

I may be your age. I may be older. I may be younger. You simply don't know. You make assumptions, resort to name calling, and attempt to make your greed look innocent. It's not. Wait your turn.

Me? I AM a part of the solution. I'll work until I'm 65. And beyond. Why? Because I can.

You can too. Deal with it.

 

[The Prussian]

I believe everybody should get a fair deal. It's not enough to hoard for ourseles, we should try to help others.

So why don't you get off your a$$ and be part of a solution?

So what's so sacrosanct about your lot in life? You've probably got hundreds if not thousands below you on your seniority list, let alone some furloughees. It's a great position that I'm sure somebody else could use to feed and care for their family. So why don't you be the first to step aside and show everybody what genuine altruism is all about.

 

[340drvr]

How 'bout from a non-121 perspective? All those high-seniority guys forced to retire end up wanting to fly for charter or corporate another many years, just part-time "to keep a hand in the game," don't necessarily need benefits or even a full salary, manage to keep the market watered down for everyone else. Or, maybe there ought to be a window of viability for professional pilots, say 35 to 58, that way there's more room for the rest of us! He!!, maybe those over 60 should be forced to report to the Soylent Green processing center on their birthday, after all, it's getting to be a crowded world............(sarcasm off, flame suit on!)

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

A perfect example of this just showed up on this thread. Undaunted Flyer made the claim that if he missed the exact date to keep seniority he would come back without it as a new hire. Well, he missed the cut by no more than a few days. He could have come back and not even gone non-current. He didn't. He didn't want it without the seniority. I got little doubt you're no different.

The above statements are 100% crap. There was no way I could have returned to my airline; that choice was removed by the "get out of my seat crowd" (worse than the real scab crowd) and by ALPA working with the HR department. And besides, so what if I or anyone else displaced from what they had earned over a lifetime of hard work chose to do something else? Whatever that choice it makes no difference in this argument.

The plain fact is that many thousands of pilots were forced to "retire" when they didn’t want to and needed to work as a means of supporting their families. These pilots were fully capable as well as qualified to keep working; and, for what reason were they fired? Not safety, but only for crew movement! Age 60 in the end was proven to be all about the young bullies like FLOPGUT and ANDY who would probably kick their own grandparents into the grave so as to get their house and property. What a great group! But it's the age of entitlement for the young.

Personally, my views are 100% in agreement with AVBUG as he has written in this thread. He has expressed the views exactly as it is. Great job AVBUG.

In any event, sorry to disappoint you FLOPGUT but I'm acutally quite happy. I now fly as a contract Falcon pilot from time to time, have an executive job on an airport board, give some checkrides and some dual from time to time and mostly have every day off if I so choose. I’m also having a blast teaching my 18-year old to fly. And yes, while he'll soon have his CFI, he's primarily interested in becoming an engineer, not a pilot. So the point is: If you're laughing at me or feeling good because I missed the cut, it is really I who has the last laugh as I read of the problems now confronting the "get out of my seat crowd." ENJOY your commute along with the 12-pilot crash-pads, the cutbacks, the enhanced FAA surveillance and the TSA hassles because, unfortunately, it's only going to get worse. Someday this time may even be called the “good old days.”

My advice for a long career and a healthy life, get over the retirement age issue, move on and locate yourself to where you work, take care of your wife and your family, deal with your career situation and enjoy life as best as you can. Finally, if you really don't like flying and were just in this for the money, change careers because the future of the job is school teacher wages. Your life will need to be sustained by a love of aviation, just as a teacher is sustained by a love of helping others.

FLY SAFE AND ENJOY LIFE!

 

[The Prussian]

How 'bout from a non-121 perspective? All those high-seniority guys forced to retire end up wanting to fly for charter or corporate another many years, just part-time "to keep a hand in the game," don't necessarily need benefits or even a full salary, manage to keep the market watered down for everyone else. Or, maybe there ought to be a window of viability for professional pilots, say 35 to 58, that way there's more room for the rest of us! He!!, maybe those over 60 should be forced to report to the Soylent Green processing center on their birthday, after all, it's getting to be a crowded world............(sarcasm off, flame suit on!)

True enough...RJ's have descended upon this planet as a plague of locusts...in the supply/demand world of pilot jobs, we're in for some tough times. :erm: