Age 65 Stinks

[Hamburger]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Trying to distract yourself from the truth?

Pilots screwing pilots = Apples
Management screwing pilots = Oranges

Every Airline and every Pilot in America = Apples
One pilot group at one airline = Oranges

 

[Flopgut]

You don't want what every pilot has. You want what those more senior to you have. Your mantra, hashed out in so many other words, is simple, as is your agenda. "Move over old man. Get out of the way. I want your job."

I don't see that in his posts. He just wants opportunity. Like everybody.

This is a very small moment in time. Let's think about where we've been and where we are going. The generation of pilots who have occasioned 65 wanted everything. They took from ALL sides of the equation; They have gleaned the field. They ripped off each other through perversions of merger policy, crossed picket lines, and changed retirement age in a sickening fashion.

However here's where we are headed: because this age change has the appearance of being an incredible windfall, those poised to capture the most have stopped paying attention to anything else. At my airline the NC isn't doing anything for the top half of the list, and most of the top half are unaware of this. (too busy trying to justify age 65) The difference in retirement methodologies is incredible and what is going to happen is the NC is likely to put together a strategy that broadens this difference. Age 65 won't be the retirement age for most of those of us under 40, we'll go earlier. And wait til the screaming starts then! The old guys will be wearing the extra 5 years they wanted out of this rule change like an anchor! The junior/young guys [right now] will have the money and a plan and be able to enjoy retirement years. The old guys will try to steal it again, but it ain't going to work. So they'll grind it out longer than they want to. And their retirement will be measured in months, not years.

I think in about 36 months from now we'll start to see this happen. In 5 years it will be fully underway. You guys who are all too happy about 65 are going to be in a voting minority and powerless.

 

[waveflyer]

It's funny how so many of the weakest/greediest generation will preach about this entitlement society-- while they themselves are the ones who engender that the most. "you want MY job." Meanwhile-- you won't offer "YOUR" job up for competition.

The greatest generation did give birth to the most selfish.

To furlough while outsourcing jobs is unforgivable union behavior. Age 65-- just par for the course with this group. They'll never understand how they ultimately screwed themselves.

 

[Flopgut]

My last thought for this thread (since Avbug sqwaked 1200): The Bellamy Brothers had it right back in the 80's. I believe this was a top ten.

KIDS OF THE BABY BOOM
The Bellamy Brothers


Our daddys won the war and came home to our moms
They gave them so much love that all us kids were born
We all grew up on Mickey Mouse and hula-hoops
Then we all bought BMW's and brand new pickup trucks
And we watched John Kennedy die one afternoon
Kids of the baby boom

It was a time of new prosperity in the USA
All the fortunate offsprings never had to pay
We had sympathy for the devil and the Rolling Stones
Then we got a little older, we found Haggard and Jones
A generation screaming for more room
Kids of the baby boom

Kids of the baby boom, we had freedom, we had money
Baby boom, here in the land of milk and honey
Counting our chickens way too soon
Kids of the baby boom

Now we all can run computers and we all can dance
We all have Calvin Klein written on our underpants
And at six-o'clock, like robots, we turn on the news
Watch those third world countries deal out more abuse
Remember the first man on the moon

Kids of the baby boom

Kids of the baby boom, we had freedom, we had money
Baby boom, here in the land of milk and honey
Counting our chickens way too soon
Kids of the baby boom

As our lives become a capsule they send to the stars
And our children look at us like we came from Mars
As the farms disappear and the sky turns black
We're a nation full of takers, never giving back
We never stop to think what we consume
Kids of the baby boom

Kids of the baby boom, we had freedom, we had money
Baby boom, here in the land of milk and honey
Cuonting our chickens way too soon
Kids of the baby boom

Our optimism mingles with the doom
Kids of the baby boom

 

[avbug]

You seem to have moved off of the claim that this fell from the sky into Congress' lap without a lot of support from pilots.

I said no such thing. Nor has my position changed, as it's the truth. Congress passed the legislation. It wasn't passed by pilots. I didn't lobby for it, neither did an organization to which I below contribute money, or lobby for it. Pilots didn't push it through. Elected members of congress did this. Furthermore, pilots didn't vote for it. This was done as an act of congress, and became public law. Again we see that you lie. You tell lies, and are therefore, a liar.

Flopgut, on the other hand, has resorted to quoting country western songs. We have already very clearly seen that his or her credibility is zero due to both a severe misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the facts (read lies), and may be fully discounted. Hamburger is no different, as we see above, and will continue to see. Avbug didn't "squawk 1200" incidentally...which of course represents another lie. Still here. Just working.

You've claimed that FO's have lost nothing as a result.

No, actually I didn't. I claim and state that it just doesn't matter. It's not a matter of losing what they don't have. You're going to surrender your career here, today, to give those beneath you what you have? No, liar? Not going to do it? You're a hypocrite, which is by definition a liar, and this, we already know of you. You lie about what I've stated, lie about the true nature of the legisaltion, and can't get your own story straight.

What a first officer may have lost is immaterial. Airlines go bankrupt. First officers lose, there, too. Airlines merge. First officers lose there, too. Furloughs occur, and first officers go out the door then, as well. Age 65...not so much. You're looking for someone, something to blame, and trying to say it just isn't fair. Life isn't fair. In this career, you're going to see multiple furloughs. You're going to see job changes. You're not owed a thing. Nothing. No company is obligated to give you what came before. We have pay tiers. Pilots won't get what those who came before got, because the pay scale doesn't go that high. Pilots may be furloughed while those more senior to them keep their jobs. I'm furloughed right now, myself. Am I crying about it? No.

Pilots above me who are above age 60 are flying as captains and as first officers on company equipment, all around the globe. Do I think this is unfair? No...because they are more senior to me. They put in many more years with the company than I did. I'm not entitled to their job. I've flown with many of them, and they're highly qualified individuals from whom I've learned a lot. I don't begrudge them a thing, and I'm glad they're doing what they love to do. Should I still be alive when I reach that stage, I hope I'm able to keep on doing the same thing.

As we see, therefore, while my position has not changed on the subject, you've lied and stated that it has...you are consistent in that you cannot tell the truth, and as you cannot speak the truth, you cannot be trusted, and therefore your thoughts, comments, and statements are meaningless and without value. This we knew before, and you continue to leave no doubt. Shortly you will go on the ignore list, too.

Also, still waiting how my "move over old man" mantra is any different than the mantra of those same guys 20 years ago when they got their upgrade class.

You say "still waiting," but you're not still waiting, because you haven't asked this before. Therefore, again you lie.

When those who are age 60 today were waiting for their upgrade class 20 years ago, they didn't need anyone to get out of their way. They simply lived in their seniority, being junior, and eventually by the progression of time became senior. As everyone does. They weren't calling for people to take an early retirement or sacrifice their careers. They patiently waited their turn, upgraded, and are now the senior pilots.

You, on the other hand, can't wait. You want them, those who put in their time (unlike you), waited, did 30 or more years for the company, and earned their place, to simply walk away from all those years, all that effort, and give it all to you. This is greed. This is avarice. This is a disgusting, pathetic, vile drive you have to take and get what isn't yours. You covet. You lie.

Those ahead of you did their time, to be sure. Nobody walked off the job early to give them a head start. Nobody surrendered their career. Those ahead of them left when it was legally their time. Over the past couple of decades, it's been age 60. That wasn't always the case, either. Today it's age 65. That may not always be the case. What was, and what may be, however, are irrelevant and without import here, because the only thing which matters is what IS. What IS, is age 65, and you can wait until those above you complete their careers. Those who are ages 60 to 65 presently, waited until those above them completed their careers. You can do the same. You'll just wait a little longer.

As for blaming all your woes on a few senior pilots (and it is a few), you might have missed the global economic recession that's going on. You're so anxious to blame your perceived troubles on a few, that you miss the big picture. Furloughs, cutbacks, downgrades, and other signs and symptoms of the industry are a result of the economic troubles, not a few pilots who will work until they're 65. Your misdirection from the truth to your own narrow view is of it's own accord, also a lie.

I most certainly will surrender my seat at 60. Hopefully sooner.

We all hope you do, too.

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about CEOs giving themselves a raise while cutting the pay of workers? Is it the CEOs or the workers who are greedy?

Senior captains are not CEO's. Your comparison is nonsensical and non-seqitur. It's a lie.

Senior captains have not given themselves a raise. Another lie.

Senior Captains have not cut the pay of those junior to them. You lie again. Three lies in one sentence. You're attempting to outdo yourself. Even a greedy liar such as yourself finds a need to get more, from a single sentence. Truly sad.

What I might think about a CEO is irrelevant, as it has no bearing on this conversation. You know that, of course, yet try to distract from the truth...which is of itself, a lie. Why do you feel the need to lie about everything?

Your assertions that wanting NOT ONE IOTA more than what every pilot before us had is greedy while the 65er wanting MORE than what every pilot before them had, at the expense of those below them, isn't greedy is a resounding failure. Do understand that greed is wanting MORE than your peers, not wanting exactly the same?

Tell me, as a greedy lying hypocrite, are you prepared to divide your salary today among those junior to you, in order that they might have what you have? You certainly want those above you to do it, to give you what they have. Why have you not done this for those junior to you? Why don't you donate your salary to the young man flying piston freight? You want equality, everyone having the same thing, do you? What have YOU done to make this happen.

If indeed you truly want everyone to have the same thing, this mythical equality of which you speak, you'd have already taken steps to make it happen. You don't want to give away anything you've got...you're not truly interested in equality, as this is a lie. You want what others have. You want more. You're upset that those above you don't give you some of their pizza...you're not about to share yours with those beneath you. this is the action of a hypocrite and a liar. It is who you are; one without honor but filled with greed, who can only look upward and think to himself how very much he wants what's above, yet who thinks nothing of those beneath.

Are you upset because you're attempting to blaze a righteous path for those who come after you, or are you simply trying to get what you think should be yours? You're only interested in you...you have no thoughts of equality. "Equality" to you means you get a share of what those above you have. You want them to step aside so you can have it. You don't want them to wait until the law requires them to retire. You want them to surrender, to sacrife, to waste, to give up, to walk away from their careers in order that you can get more. This is pure greed. Filthy, disgusting, honorless, greed manifest as raging hypocricy in your failure to do the same for those below you.

Unmasked, your position is an ugly one, stripped of innocense, and without pretense of equality or doing good. Your aim is clear, your goal unambiguous. You want what others have, what you have not earned. Your mantra remains unchanged. "Get out of the way, old man. I want your job."

You can disguise it any way you like, but you're easily seen for what you are, and it's far from complimentary.

Again, we can safely conclude you have nothing to offer here, and have no need to carry on discussion with you in the future. You've depleted your value in the conversation, and your credibility store has long since gone bankrupt. Your lies are uncovered, your agenda made bare, and you, too, are relegated to the ignore list.

 

[avbug]

What might you say if you were an intelligent, professional adult with a better command of the English language? No further conversation necessary with you before relegating you to the ignore list, as well.

Shame you had nothing to contribute to the discussion.

 

[zonker]

avGas, you've confused the ability to type a few hundred words with actual intelligence and a grasp of the facts.

It's a shame you don't put as much effort into your life (it's quite evident yours is pathetic) as you do on this forum.

Ta ta!

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

I said no such thing. Nor has my position changed, as it's the truth. Congress passed the legislation. It wasn't passed by pilots. I didn't lobby for it, neither did an organization to which I below contribute money, or lobby for it. Pilots didn't push it through. Elected members of congress did this. Furthermore, pilots didn't vote for it. This was done as an act of congress, and became public law. Again we see that you lie. You tell lies, and are therefore, a liar.

So Congress passed the legislation. No kidding. The rule change didn’t exist in a vacuum. To say that pilots didn’t push this through Congress just shows a complete lack of understanding of the issue and what happened behind the scenes to get Age 65 backdoored through Congress. I know, I was in the debriefing by our legal team up on the hill.


Avgas continues to use his shotgun “liar” tactic to try and shoot down any disagreement to his support of Age 65. He may continue to call us liars (as is his right and his diversionary tactic) but it doesn’t change the fact that Age 65 made this a less safe industry. He claims to have flown with guys over 60 but from his statements, I really wonder. There is little doubt on how demanding this profession is on our bodies and yet Avgas admits to wanting no age limit. Again it’s obvious that he has little concern about industry safety just as long as he still has a shot at his pilot’s job. And who’s the greedy one?


He still never addresses the fact that the junior pilots had “career expectations” before Age 65 other to say we just wanted the “old man’s seat.” Which, as most of know, was the exact opposite of what happened. Bottom line -- the senior guys wanted to keep their seats at the junior pilot’s expense and got it.


Moreover, it’s absolutely insane to make a statement that Age 65 has no bearing on what is now happening in the industry. Over at American right now, we have over 2000 pilots furlough and 200 pilots flying over the age of 60. Not costing any jobs – yeah right.

As arrogant and pompous a poster as Avgas, why does he continue to cower in anonymity and hide behind his keyboard? Why won’t his post his age, where he works and post his credentials? He’s admits to being a furloughed pilot, now on the outside looking in. Who’s the bitter one in the debate? It’s obvious he is an older pilot that is merely trying to keep his career going at another junior pilot’s expense.


He and a few of his pro 65 buddies thought I was a former TWA pilot that was furloughed. Like most of their views, they were way off the mark. I have 19 years over at American. I take it as an honor though trying to stick up for the junior pilot’s rights.


Make no mistake about – Age 65 was a giant step backwards for the profession. Lot's of pilots got screwed.


AA767AV8TOR

 

[Linedriver]

There's a dead horse out in the field next door - I'm gonna go beat it.

 

[Hamburger]

:laugh:Wow!:laugh: What a nutter. I stopped counting at 23 times falsely calling me a liar. Overcompensate much? You sound just like the Larry Craig/Ted Haggart types railing and foaming at the mouth about Homos. Transferring the truth about yourself onto others. "It wasn't pilots, it was Congress", "Junior guys haven't lost anything" are the the actual lies.

Pilots pushed this through. We all know this.
An extra five years at the Top is not the same as an extra five years at the Bottom. All of us that aren't complete idiots know this as well.
Current senior guys directly benefited from Age 60 retirements. Junior guys no longer get this benefit.
If you don't want to be man enough to admit these simple facts, fine. Continue with your Emotionality, Overcompensation, Attack, Projection, Denial, Displacement, and Avoidance coping mechanisms (that's damn near every one in the book!). It's actually pretty funny to watch a guy descend into sputtering lunacy.
Your attempts to twist my thoughts on EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY (which is what America is all about), into dividing my paycheck up is weak. I'm amazed you managed to avoid calling me a Communist during your Drama Queen hate-fest.
Call me all the names you wish. I never said that life is fair. All I've ever said is I'm not about to let those who hold us down off the hook.
Enjoy your furlough. After the extra five years of stewing in your bitterness, I'm sure you'll be a real peach.

Don't forget. Responding to me after you've declared I'm on your ignore list would make you a liar.