Age 65 Stinks

[BrickTop]

There really is no one factor suggesting any recovery is near. All the airlines do anymore is cut capacity, merge and downsize fleets, furlough and over work remaining crews. No attrition to retirement, as legacy carriers farm out more flying. The younger pilot group sees growth at their regionals but with no movement above hence no replacement of legacy senior pilots. The future will hold far less pilots period, as we bring in larger fleet types of the 70-120 seat range and reduce frequency and overlap with mergers. The ball is dark and murky. The best we can hope for is a total system revamp comprised of EMB-190 and CRJ-1000 type fleets with positions that pay $80,000 after 15 years of service.

 

[Buzo]

There really is no one factor suggesting any recovery is near. All the airlines do anymore is cut capacity, merge and downsize fleets, furlough and over work remaining crews. No attrition to retirement, as legacy carriers farm out more flying. The younger pilot group sees growth at their regionals but with no movement above hence no replacement of legacy senior pilots. The future will hold far less pilots period, as we bring in larger fleet types of the 70-120 seat range and reduce frequency and overlap with mergers. The ball is dark and murky. The best we can hope for is a total system revamp comprised of EMB-190 and CRJ-1000 type fleets with positions that pay $80,000 after 15 years of service.

Why don't you post that a few more times.

 

[BrickTop]

Why don't you post that a few more times.

Repetitiveness Get the blood pressure up

 

[avbug]

I also wonder why they have a cut off date of 30 years old to BECOME a pilot.

In part for some of the same reasons that other federal services have cutoff ages for pilots in various disciplines. Retirement, and fitness particular to the mission. Not many 777 captains need to be ready to punch out and escape and evade for a given period of time...whereas this is always a matter of concern for the young man in the F16.

The military also has no shortage of applicants, and has no need to extend (except by special circumstance) or waiver the age limits. You may be young enough to not know that the age, and waiverable age, has been extended several times.

Entitlement? What's ironic is that the pilots who retired at age 60 years ago gave those of you who pushed for 65 the opportunity to get where you are when you did. Yet you are "entitled" to a little more?

Me? Entitled? No. But then I'm not age 60, either. A man should be able to work as long as he's able.

Those who retired gave nobody anything. They had no choice, and acted in accordance with the law.

Those who retire now at age 65 have no choice but to retire by age 65, in accordance with the law. They might retire sooner, but cannot retire later. No need for anybody to give up anything. Age 60 retirees didn't willingly go, or choose to end their careers at 60...it was taken from them. Age 65 is a step forward, but not enough of one.

Your commentary, however, is strongly reticent of the entitlement crowd...get out of my way, old man...I want your job. Your mantra never seems to change. Greed...it's all about the greed.

No. This is a pilot board. Pilots do three things. Eat, Fly, and Bitch. If you don't like it, find another line of work.

Perhaps you eat, fly, and bitch. Some of us, myself included operate professionally, work, and enjoy a fulfilling career. I needn't find another line of work; I like this one just fine. You, apparently, do not.

So why aren't they hired? Loss of perspective? Superiority complex? Inflexible attitudes?

Your question, of course, asks why airline retirees are often unable to find work when they leave the airlines. The answer is several fold. Certainly the airline stink is a big part of it; many operators, corporate and others, have an aversion to hiring airline pilots because of their typical inability or unwillingness to do simple things like stock the airplane, file their own flightplans, or carry a customer's bag. Airline pilots who are at retirement age generally have no recent general aviation experience, or experience in type or experience outside the airline environment in quite some time. This is a detriment. Airline pilots tend to have attitudes, arrogant ones at that, which turns off many HR departments in charter and corporate offices. Airline pilots tend to fly like they're still in their 747...flaring at the wrong atltitudes, and flying the airplane as though they're still flying at the airline...and tend to think that the way they've been flying is the only way, when it's not. Airline pilots at the retirement age don't have as long to offer in the long run for an operator...and airline pilots, especially furloughed pilots, have a nasty habit of taking training and then leaving...costing operators many thousands of dollars...accordingly many operators don't like to hire airline pilots.

Noone in this career made up the age 60 rule- but it's been here for all of us since we started.

Actually, it hasn't always been age 60. You're just too young to know differently. Check your facts.

You can't actually compete, you got weak- protected by seniority- so you keep your "position" for another 5 years since "competing" would be out of the question....

You, you you. You, of course, haven't a clue what you're talking about, or to whom you're talking. You speak as though I'm somehow to benefit from the age 65 legislation. You're wrong, of course.

So an airman still has the ability to work flying airplanes.

The physical ability, yes...and this has been my point all along. The opportunity, of course, is another matter.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

This message is hidden because FoxHunter is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because Avbug is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Kwick is on your ignore list.

Ahhhh...that's better. My B.S. meter was pegged. BTW, your Xs called and some of the alimony checks have bounced. Just to be safe, you better bump it up to 70.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

A Senior Citizen

I am a senior citizen...

- I'm the life of the party... even when it lasts 'till 8pm.

- I'm very good at opening childproof caps with a hammer.

- I'm usually interested in going home before I get to where I'm going.

- I'm good on a trip for at least an hour without my aspirin, antacid...

- I get plenty of rest at work. My First Officer wakes me up when we pull into the gate.

- I'm the first one to find the bathroom wherever I go.

- I'm awake many hours before my body allows me to get up.

- I'm smiling all the time because I can't hear a word you're saying but I've got a 1st class medical.

- I'm very good at telling stories...over and over and over and over.

- I'm aware that other people's grandchildren are not as bright as mine but they sure make great First Officers.

- I'm so cared for: long-term care, eye care, private care, dental care.

- I'm not grouchy, I just don't like traffic, waiting, children, politicians...

- I'm positive I did housework correctly before the Internet.

- I'm sure everything I can't find is in a secure place.

- I'm wrinkled, saggy and lumpy, and that's just my left leg.

- I'm having trouble remembering simple phrases like... uh... or "Gear Down"

- I'm realizing that aging is not for sissies.

- I'm walking more (to the bathroom) and enjoying it less.

- I'm sure they are making adults much younger these days but the FAA, Congress and ALPA apparently didn't get the memo.

- I'm in the *initial* state of my golden years: SS, CD's, IRA's, AARP, ALPA, USAPA.

- I'm wondering, if you're only as old as you feel, how could I be alive and flying at 150?

- I'm anti-everything now: anti-fat, anti-smoke, anti-noise, anti-inflammatory, anti-retirement.

- I'm a walking storeroom of facts... I've just lost the key to the storeroom. Let me ask my First Officer.

- I'm a Senior Citizen and I think I am having the time of my life... Aren't I?

 

[Jack Mehoff]

The truth is I would rather have my family in the back of an airliner being piloted by an over 60 guy than one of these 22 year old, green behind the ears "under 60" pilots any day of the week. You need look no further than the Hudson and BUF. Harsh but true.

Oh thats right, You were born with an ATP and 5000 hours. Do you get scared knowing that a 22 year old is flying an F16? Everyone has to start some where. There are just as many incompetent grey haired pilots as there are 22 year old ones. How many crashes in the 60-70s were older guys doing dumbass moves?? Running out of fuel in Portland? going below mins and killing a football team, fixating on a gear light and plowing into the everglades...

 

[C-150ETOPS]

I've been worried about my health since I decided I wanted to be an airline pilot, I think age 16.

My primary care Doc says I'm one of the most healthy patients he has.:beer:
I still try to run 3-4 miles a day, play golf, ride a couple of horses a day. Worked real hard to make it to age 60, now have to shoot for 65, heck in another couple of years it may be 70 or greater!!!

That's great, but I flew with a guy who ran in Marathons right up to and past age 60. He was a 60+ gadlfy who left a few years ago before the change. After his retirement flight, he ran home from the airport 26 miles the first day, and the remaining 26 the next to prove his point, or so he thought. He was a nice enough guy, but although he had the body endurance greater than most 20 year olds, his brain was mush when making flight decisions. He sucked in the air. Guess what? Every 9 months at 10:00 am after a cup of coffee, he would pass a sim check. I wanted his rides scheduled at 4:15 am to get the real story.

He was also dead in 2 years, RIP.

 

[Freight Dog]

YES!....Those that don't have a vested interest.

Are you saying that a number of military flight surgeons have any vested interest in mandatory retirement of airline pilots?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Enough of this thread, already. 250 posts of urinating in the wind.

Age 65 is the law and we ain't going back.

Ever.

 

[Linedriver]

This thread became worthless when it was started.

 

[Full of LUV]

Here is an honest Union Question

Enough of this thread, already. 250 posts of urinating in the wind.

Age 65 is the law and we ain't going back.

Ever.

If ALPA/SWAPA/APA etc represents ALL of their pilots, why not work initially to phase in this change, like raise the age one year every two years so no One group of pilots who were 59 at the time saw a complete windfall while everyone else stagnates and the bottom is ultimately furloughed? It seems that would have been an equitable way to raise the age (since it was deemed inevitable) without overtly favoring the senior 55+ pilots. For me it is an example where the union uses its power to take from the junior and give to the senior. B scales, scope, etc are all examples where the union walks on it's junior members and then wonders where all the animosity towards the union leadership comes from.
Luv

 

[Linedriver]

I will tell you why - because that would make too much sense.

 

[Flopgut]

Enough of this thread, already. 250 posts of urinating in the wind.

Age 65 is the law and we ain't going back.

Ever.

I think this thread is of good use to keep the issue in our scan and halt an effort to make the rule 70 or whatever the current leadership wants to see happen.

There are many small miracles in this business. Among them are being able to retire from an airline and not having the airline fizzle out, actually reaching the retirement age physically able, and simply getting hired is a pretty big deal. Despite what age 65 supporters will vehemently deny, a pilot does have career expectations when they get hired. We know this to be true because we know arbitration exists and we've seen it play out. In instances not too much different than age 65, arbitration has been a tool to balance the outcome and prevent a windfall. Remember, Prater made this happen how and when it did. He had it stripped from a larger transportation bill during a session of Congress it was clearly not going to make it through. That being the case, I think resolutions need to be passed and lawsuits need to be considered in order to remind John Prater that there are other pilots in this union and profession than the soon to be retired. If he attempts to make the age 70 there needs to be an effort to arbitrate the effects. Period! Prater has a problem with career expectations of junior pilots and he clearly has an issue with arbitration [USAir] and it's costing this union and profession dearly.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

I turn 65 Oct, 2012, Original DOH 7/14/69

297 hrs. this year so far, 48 Landings, fly either international or to my home town.

Flying since 1969 and still doesn't have enough money to retire. What a sad situation.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[fob727]

Flying since 1969 and still doesn't have enough money to retire. What a sad situation.

AA767AV8TOR

That's it. I'm sure it has nothing to do with him enjoying his job and still able to do skillfully.

The real reason, I bet; is that he doesn't want to give his job to self-entitled crybabies like flopgut.

 

[Flopgut]

That's it. I'm sure it has nothing to do with him enjoying his job and still able to do skillfully.

The real reason, I bet; is that he doesn't want to give his job to self-entitled crybabies like flopgut.

K. Why don't you explain this:

Forced off the 747 back to the DC8, then furloughed by FTL out of seniority. Recalled 6 months later after a settlement.

This guy gets a "settlement" after something occurs to his seniority. Hmmm. I asked him to elaborate but he hasn't so maybe I'm on his ignore list. But it's interesting that a "settlement" is a proper thing for him and not the least bit "self-entitled". However, to suggest the same for today's junior, seniority marginalized pilot is equivilent to being a "crybaby"? Where do you come up with that?

I think we have an issue here that needs to go to grievance arbitration. Prater made this happen, has not followed through in seeking a way to keep 60 the retirement age norm, and has completely ignored career expectations in a scenario where that should have entered into the equation. Examine the USAir situation closely and compare the retirement age issue. You'll see that this is a pattern of behavior with John and that despite what guys like you and he believe, the legal community is not in agreement. And that if the retirement age effects were arbitrated, a windfall would not exist for guys like you, Prater or Foxhunter.

 

[The Prussian]

Are you saying that a number of military flight surgeons have any vested interest in mandatory retirement of airline pilots?

Freight Dog...

Yep...I'd put that number at one to start off with - your wife.

 

[fob727]

K. Why don't you explain this:



This guy gets a "settlement" after something occurs to his seniority. Hmmm. I asked him to elaborate but he hasn't so maybe I'm on his ignore list. But it's interesting that a "settlement" is a proper thing for him and not the least bit "self-entitled". However, to suggest the same for today's junior, seniority marginalized pilot is equivilent to being a "crybaby"? Where do you come up with that?

I think we have an issue here that needs to go to grievance arbitration. Prater made this happen, has not followed through in seeking a way to keep 60 the retirement age norm, and has completely ignored career expectations in a scenario where that should have entered into the equation. Examine the USAir situation closely and compare the retirement age issue. You'll see that this is a pattern of behavior with John and that despite what guys like you and he believe, the legal community is not in agreement. And that if the retirement age effects were arbitrated, a windfall would not exist for guys like you, Prater or Foxhunter.

I get the "crybaby" from all your pi$$ing and moaning. It's the law...get over it.

Not everyone that disagrees with your rants is over 60, I have 17 yrs. to till 65.

If you don't like what ALPA has done, get involved.

Wh care about his settlement, I know I don't.

PM me your address, I'll send you a pacifier.

 

[kwick]

Age 65 Does stink!

There should absolutely be no restriction on one's ability to sell their services,
in a free economy