Age 65 Stinks

[UndauntedFlyer]

I've been laughing about this sentence for days! Fricking hilarious. You don't know whether to sh!t or go blind, do you? Anybody who wants to read you ranting and check the facts can do so on the "Age 65 Informal Poll" thread.

You could have single handedly lended more credibility to the age 65 campaign than any one person has lifted an issue! All you had to do was come back like you said you would. Even if it would have been for just one training event and only one bid month you would have been a Christ figure to the cause. Instead, you couldn't muster the professionalism to fly as FO for a once junior to you pilot. Even though they would have been a fellow ALPA/UAL pilot it was too much for your ego. You didn't do it. Sad.

Floppy: Didn't you read my post? ALPA and the HR people put the fix in. The result: UAL only wanted inexperienced new pilots, not the guys who had been there over 30 years with perfect records. So you see, I didn't have a chance, I had a perfect record, never failed a check ride and never scratched anything. The fact is that not one over age-60 pilot was hired although several, besides me, applied.

Really, it was the "get out of my seat crowd" that bullied and bargained away our pension and then kicked us into the street to take our seats. Then they have the nerve to call us greedy? Give truth a break.

The truth, AVBUG says it best. He's 100% on target.

 

[Flopgut]

Really, it was the "get out of my seat crowd" that bullied and bargained away our pension and then kicked us into the street to take our seats. Then they have the nerve to call us greedy? Give truth a break.

It's sad you continue to believe this. You have got to get this through your head: every possible morsel of the junior UAL pilots' future was leveraged in an attempt to save your retirement. The best scope clause in history was transformed into a single sentence, and it still didn't work. There were many junior guys who didn't believe it could be saved, but they still let the scope clause be laid down to try. You owe them better than calling them the "get out of my seat crowd".

Regarding a return to UAL: you just didn't want to be the only guy to go back. Ego was too big.

Remember this: You had the luxury of knowing your exact retirement date beforehand. That's a lot better deal than guys like you had for the Frontier guys! So factor that into the equation when you think you're perfect. I won't let you forget that.

 

[semperfido]

Avbug, Right on. Very nice posts. I enjoyed reading them. I hope to be flying across many time zones on the other side of the world in the middle of the night well into my sixties too. If it doesn't happen- C'est La Vie!

 

[Flopgut]

You cry moderation now, and that's good and well...but it's not been your mantra thus far. Are you now prepared to be reasonable?

Like you, I've done a lot of things in aviation. Sixty was always young and I saw many pilots get jobs after airline retirement and they were some of the best. However, to continue past 60 they had to find a new job via an interview and they had to be presentable enough in all criteria to be a candidate. This rule is different. Any pilot who wants to stay, can. Result: The guys who are staying with the airline aren't necessarily the type who would be employable elsewhere. The guys with their sh!t together are still leaving. Airlines' most esteemed positions are starting to look like a circus. Project this out and you'll see that strict seniority is hardly a "food chain". You want a "food chain"? Let's drop seniority and go with rostering and assignments (we could completely drop the age limit then) and see where everybody ends up. The kind of pilot who wanted/supported age 65 did so because they were, in fact, afraid of the "food chain"! They didn't want to find themselves part of it.

Question: Do you believe that as a result of 65 a junior pilot should be removed from a seat position they currently hold in favor of a more senior pilot specifically in cases where there is no real staffing reason that would otherwise occasion it? If a bid at my airline does not include vacancies (a factor of total block hours projected) in a certain seat position no new pilot can bid into that position regardless of seniority. Should established seat position bidding practices prevail or should the new retirement age have been used to rebid an entire airline?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

It's sad you continue to believe this. You have got to get this through your head: every possible morsel of the junior UAL pilots' future was leveraged in an attempt to save your retirement. The best scope clause in history was transformed into a single sentence, and it still didn't work. There were many junior guys who didn't believe it could be saved, but they still let the scope clause be laid down to try. You owe them better than calling them the "get out of my seat crowd".

Regarding a return to UAL: you just didn't want to be the only guy to go back. Ego was too big.

Remember this: You had the luxury of knowing your exact retirement date beforehand. That's a lot better deal than guys like you had for the Frontier guys! So factor that into the equation when you think you're perfect. I won't let you forget that.

Floppy: What you write about the ALPA/UAL negotiations is only partially true: ALPA did give away scope and pay in Round 1, and then when Round-2 came around that's when ALPA caved in completely and gave the "A" plan retirement money to the PBGC with gift wrappings on the package. In fact, turning the A-Plan to the PBGC and then converting to a defined contribution plan was ALPA's suggestion to UAL and they of course jumped on it. In other words, the younger crowd did the cowardly thing, rather than fight.

So in the end, ALPA gave away scope and pay in Round-1 and then retirement in Round-2 so as to save their own cowardly skins for at least the short term. In the total negotiations, just as I have said, ALPA gave away the senior pilot’s retirement in the 11th hour of their career, just as I have posted earlier.

The final act of the grand plan was to oppose age-65 as best they could so as to kick the senior captains into the street ASAP with next to nothing. This was to raise the pay of the previously mentioned cowards through their own promotions into the vacant seats of those who they were forcing to retire with nothing. Now, the fact is that this is what really happened and you know it.

Of course, in the end, the Congress forced the "get out of my seat" bullies to do the right thing by shoving age-65 down their greedy throats. Enjoy!

And Floopy, didn’t you read my prior post, ALPA and HR fixed it so the age-60 guys couldn’t even come back as new-hires when the law changed, not even to the training center. I guess that was because when you sh!t on someone you really don’t want to see them any more because it reminds you of what a coward you are. That’s the only reason I can think for the action of keeping us out, even as a new-hire.

But I'm not complaining. I'm actually happy to be gone and leading a "normal" life. Maybe you will retire early too, but I don't think so. The "get out of my seat" crowd wants it all, every last second and they don't care at whose expense it is as long as it isn't their own.

BTW: I have no hard feelings toward you or anyone else. I love everyone who has the courage to comment on FI.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

AVBUG: I've really enjoyed reading your comments on this subject. This is your best work ever. Congratulations, you have certainly called the liars what they are! Thank you for this contribution, your objectivity and for your honesty. You have told it like it is.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Again,
The military excuse is pulled.....again. That 25 year old in the B-1, is at the end of a selection/training process that wouldn't even allow you to apply. Get over it, those guys have THE RIGHT STUFF, your stuff is a backpack full of hair gel and guitar picks, toss in an iPod and there you go. If you have to get furloughed so I can continue to work and acquire the necessary stuff for a comfortable life, well...too bad. You could always sell your kids into white slavery, they really should not be living in a refrigerator box under the freeway anyway! After I get the 3rd house paid off, I think I want a P-51 for the weekends. Senority is ruff!
PBR

Yeah that's why I went F15 A$$hole

 

[Flopgut]

I guess that was because when you sh!t on someone you really don’t want to see them any more because it reminds you of what a coward you are. That’s the only reason I can think for the action of keeping us out, even as a new-hire.

No Sir, that's what you did to the Frontier guys. If you had been half as creative in negotiating with UAL mgt over your A plan as you were at decieving the FAL pilots, you might still have it. Or, why don't you get off your wrinkly butt and try to get it back!? The PBGC is sitting on your money and if you would match the effort you spend in expounding on how "greedy" junior pilots are you might get something done. Guys like you managed to change a 40 year old rule, why don't you try to secure some increase for yourself without diminishing the profession for a change??

ALPA is about to get into the RLA. The more that is uncovered the more reasons we will find to leverage improvement for this profession. In a scenario where we might have been fully covered under the RLA for protection (not just liable to the terms of the RLA) you would not have lost your A plan. This was not the case; airline pilots distanced themselves from upsides the RLA contained in an effort to secure more money for fewer pilots. Case in point, the aforementioned FAL/UAL pilot debacle. Previous to the stunt you pulled, the RLA contained language that provided for seniority intergration in merger scenarios that acted as a backstop to ALPA merger policy. UAL pilots had the full protections reduced to include only pre 1974 DOH because you didn't want to allow any version of merger policy to prevail with FAL. You set the bar for greed quite early in your career and it came back to bite you in the a$$.

So why don't you do something now instead of complain about a bunch of junior pilots who really don't have the capacity to match your level of greed. UAL pilots don't have enough left for you to assail them as greedy "get out of my seaters". Take charge of something or bow out.

 

[Fubijaakr]

avbug,

Again, well said. All I can tell you about bitter, greedy guys like (ex)AA767AV8TOR can be summed up thusly:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it irritates the pig."

Obviously an ex-TWA pilot, he's so wrapped up in his bitterness that his perception of reality is totally warped. While I give you kudos for trying, sometimes ignoring the ignorant is more effective.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

No Sir, that's what you did to the Frontier guys. If you had been half as creative in negotiating with UAL mgt over your A plan as you were at decieving the FAL pilots, you might still have it.

Floppy: Excuse me but you must have mistaken me for someone else. I personally or even collectively had nothing to do with the Frontier deal, or the Air Wisconsin screwing either. Those deals were just the usual work of UAL with maybe a little cooperation from ALPA. The membership had nothing to do with that. There was no vote. And besides, you are just trying to change the subject because you know the age-60/65 issue is all lies by you and your colleagues, as AVBUG as so accurately pointed out. My advice, get over this all and just go on to work. Preoccupation with things like this can be dangerous and maybe a medical disqualification factor.