Age 60 informal poll

[Flopgut]

There is no point in talking about changing all the rules. It has taken 48 years to change just one rule, and so the age-60 is changing. So now lets just deal with it as it's going to be. It is a total waist of everybody’s time to talk about extreme changes in the seniority system. Such changes have no chance of happening. The change in the verbiage for the new FAR will be exactly the same as the ICAO rule.

OK, so it would be extreme to suggest the profession evolve in a way that might goof up the windfall for a very few like you...but perfectly OK to see furloughs stay on the street for 5 more years? I promise you, this will be EXTREME for a furlough.

You'll buy another house, get divorced/married again, have more kids, and buy a Baron. Furloughs will be indigent!

 

[Phaedrus]

You're pinging the wrong target there Flopgut.

 

[lostplnetairman]

OK, so it would be extreme to suggest the profession evolve in a way that might goof up the windfall for a very few like you...but perfectly OK to see furloughs stay on the street for 5 more years? I promise you, this will be EXTREME for a furlough.

You'll buy another house, get divorced/married again, have more kids, and buy a Baron. Furloughs will be indigent!

We all love the extremest views--those that categorize everyone into one simple, neat category. Yup, everyone who is in favor of removing Age 60 has 3 wives, mucho houses to support, boats, and no savings.

Get real.

Some are not even near 50 who support the removal of age 60!

Me thinks you do protest too much.

 

[Flybynite]

OK, so it would be extreme to suggest the profession evolve in a way that might goof up the windfall for a very few like you...but perfectly OK to see furloughs stay on the street for 5 more years? I promise you, this will be EXTREME for a furlough.

You'll buy another house, get divorced/married again, have more kids, and buy a Baron. Furloughs will be indigent!

Life sucks man. Get over it. This isn't a socialist country where everyone works for the good of the masses. If this job didn't turn out like you wanted or expected, go find a different career. Don't expect others to sacrifice because you feel you're getting a raw deal. Grow up.

 

[Flopgut]

We all love the extremest views--those that categorize everyone into one simple, neat category. Yup, everyone who is in favor of removing Age 60 has 3 wives, mucho houses to support, boats, and no savings.

Get real.

Some are not even near 50 who support the removal of age 60!

Me thinks you do protest too much.

OK, Maybe I generalized things a bit for the windfall crowd, and maybe this guy is not culpable.

However, what do you think pilots, who were otherwise somewhat ready to retire at 60, will do with the extra 750k-1mil? Trust me, it won't be pretty when you contrast it with a furlough's lifestyle who was counting on SOMETHING and got NOTHING! If you can feel completely "OK" about that, there's something wrong with you.

Is this the HR DIVA or the pilot? Question for the Diva: What do you think of abandoning seniority as part of this change? Have I asked you that before? From an HR standpoint, Do you want to place your best employees where you want or is this of more use as a divide and conquer tactic?

 

[Flopgut]

This isn't a socialist country where everyone works for the good of the masses.

Hold on, if seniority isn't a form of socialism, what is it? I think it is. You may disagree, but, you have to admit that rostering and assignments would better emulate a free market. It probably wouldn't be good for me personally, but since everyone wants to be like ICAO lets finish the deal. What's not grown up about that?

 

[Flybynite]

Hold on, if seniority isn't a form of socialism, what is it? I think it is. You may disagree, but, you have to admit that rostering and assignments would better emulate a free market.

Ok, work as much or as little as you want, all pay goes into a pot then divvy it up equally among those who work and those who don't. Sounds like a great system.

Whatever happened to the idea that those who want more, work more or work harder to achieve. There are no guarantees for anyone. If you take a job with a comapny that goes sour or you get hired at the end of a hiring boom why do you feel you should safeguarded by others for your misfortune. We all take a gamble when we hire on, if it doesn't work for you move on. There is no indentured servitude, find something else.

 

[Flopgut]

Ok, work as much or as little as you want, all pay goes into a pot then divvy it up equally among those who work and those who don't. Sounds like a great system.

Whatever happened to the idea that those who want more, work more or work harder to achieve. There are no guarantees for anyone. If you take a job with a comapny that goes sour or you get hired at the end of a hiring boom why do you feel you should safeguarded by others for your misfortune. We all take a gamble when we hire on, if it doesn't work for you move on. There is no indentured servitude, find something else.

Hold on, do you even know what the rostering and assignment method is? Seniority IS a safeguard; it IS a guarantee! Why should you or I be able to pull the seniority ladder up on another? Pick a side my friend. Defend seniority and oppose the age change or seek to abandon the system entirely.

 

[Flybynite]

Whistler: I don't care so much about what the law reads. I care about the agreement made between all of us that is seniority.

What is this agreement you have and who is it with? Your seniority tells you where you rank among the crew force at a particular airline, it doesn't guarantee anything. The success of your company determines your advancement and survivability. You must have been wearing blinders if you entered this business thinking that you were exempt from any changes that may come down in the next thirty years.

 

[Flybynite]

Hold on, do you even know what the rostering and assignment method is? Seniority IS a safeguard; it IS a guarantee! Why should you or I be able to pull the seniority ladder up on another? Pick a side my friend. Defend seniority and oppose the age change or seek to abandon the system entirely.

No I don't know and I don't care. I work under a seniority system, if you want something different work inside your company for change. Oh thats right, you are against change.

When you started in this profession no one guaranteed you that age 60 wouldn't change or that 3 man cockpits would go away. Change happens.

Once again seniority gaurantees you nothing - my friend

 

[Flopgut]

No I don't know and I don't care. I work under a seniority system, if you want something different work inside your company for change. Oh thats right, you are against change.

When you started in this profession no one guaranteed you that age 60 wouldn't change or that 3 man cockpits would go away. Change happens.

Once again seniority gaurantees you nothing - my friend

You're all over the board on what seniority is and you admit you don't understand another method, that's not good.

Seniority is the agreement we workers have with each other. Opportunity goes to those who have been working the longest. That is the only measure of who gets what. We are not staffed on employee merits at all. Rostering and assignments changes that and includes an overall employee merit metric to career expectation/progression.

I think change is just fine, I'm all for it. But let's make good decisions and selflessly work toward improvement. Simply handing out seniority is bad business, for many reasons.

 

[Flybynite]

You're all over the board on what seniority is and you admit you don't understand another method, that's not good.

Seniority is the agreement we workers have with each other. Opportunity goes to those who have been working the longest. That is the only measure of who gets what. We are not staffed on employee merits at all. Rostering and assignments changes that and includes an overall employee merit metric to career expectation/progression.

I think change is just fine, I'm all for it. But let's make good decisions and selflessly work toward improvement. Simply handing out seniority is bad business, for many reasons.[/quote

You are confusing two issues. Seniority and age 60. One is a contractual agreement and the other is an FAA regulation. No, I don't care about some proposal you have to dtermine what you fly and when you fly. That is between you (your union) and your company. You want to change that go right ahead and try.

You want to see employee merit determine seniority, go join the military and watch the ass kissing and backstabbing that takes place to get ahead.

Don't like the seniority system then you are in the wrong business. But you knew that coming in didn't you?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Seniority is the agreement we workers have with each other. Opportunity goes to those who have been working the longest. That is the only measure of who gets what. We are not staffed on employee merits at all. Rostering and assignments changes that and includes an overall employee merit metric to career expectation/progression.

Assuming that by some "Miracle-of-God" your proposal to upgrade pilots by merit were to take effect, how would you protect yourself, and our profession, from airline managers who regard operating under reduced margins of safety as "worthy of merit?" How will you feel about them when your chief pilot informs you that a junior crewmember is being ungraded ahead of you because he's had fewer diversions for weather, fewer write-ups, less calls for de-icing, or less elapsed time between block-out and take-off? I hope your company has new airplanes, short checklists, and only flies in good weather...

How will you react when you learn that the company is opening a bid for a new type aircraft, and that preference will be given for people already type-rated in that equipment? Getting your own type in a transport-category isn't cheap. I hope you (or your wife, or your Daddy) have deep pockets...

Or maybe they'll open a new crew base, and give preference to those crewmembers who already live within close proximity to the airport. I hope you have a moving truck...

The bottom line is that in this business, you are hired based on merit, after which your opportunities for promotion are rooted in (but not assured by)seniority. You cannot positively affect one without negatively impacting the other.

 

[pilotyip]

Flobgut, even I think the seniority system is the only system that works. Now it does not automatically mean you will satisfactorily complete training, but you are given a chance in seniority.

 

[lostplnetairman]

OK, Maybe I generalized things a bit for the windfall crowd, and maybe this guy is not culpable.

However, what do you think pilots, who were otherwise somewhat ready to retire at 60, will do with the extra 750k-1mil? Trust me, it won't be pretty when you contrast it with a furlough's lifestyle who was counting on SOMETHING and got NOTHING! If you can feel completely "OK" about that, there's something wrong with you.

Is this the HR DIVA or the pilot? Question for the Diva: What do you think of abandoning seniority as part of this change? Have I asked you that before? From an HR standpoint, Do you want to place your best employees where you want or is this of more use as a divide and conquer tactic?

Nope, Diva always signs her name. It's the pilot. Diva is traveling--launching a major expansion of her company's business and only wants to post in response to HR/benefits questions because she is super swamped. By the way some of us went through furloughs and had to start over at the bottom. You should have heard the stories at my last new hire class.

Let's just all agree to disagree. Because no one is changing anyone's opinion and we have all written our representatives in Congress.

 

[Flopgut]

You're all over the board on what seniority is and you admit you don't understand another method, that's not good.

Seniority is the agreement we workers have with each other. Opportunity goes to those who have been working the longest. That is the only measure of who gets what. We are not staffed on employee merits at all. Rostering and assignments changes that and includes an overall employee merit metric to career expectation/progression.

I think change is just fine, I'm all for it. But let's make good decisions and selflessly work toward improvement. Simply handing out seniority is bad business, for many reasons.[/quote

You are confusing two issues. Seniority and age 60. One is a contractual agreement and the other is an FAA regulation. No, I don't care about some proposal you have to dtermine what you fly and when you fly. That is between you (your union) and your company. You want to change that go right ahead and try.

You want to see employee merit determine seniority, go join the military and watch the ass kissing and backstabbing that takes place to get ahead.

Don't like the seniority system then you are in the wrong business. But you knew that coming in didn't you?

You're blurring two issues for your own benefit.

 

[Flybynite]

You're blurring two issues for your own benefit.

I believe that is what I pointed out to you. Take your blinders off. You want to change the industry so the ace of the base, such as your self, can be number one on the list. But you don't think a forty something year old arbitrary age should change. Ok, it's all about you and what benefits the gut. Your convincing argument swayed me, I'm all for what is good for the gut. Law doesn't change. Issue resolved.

 

[Flopgut]

Assuming that by some "Miracle-of-God" your proposal to upgrade pilots by merit were to take effect, how would you protect yourself, and our profession, from airline managers who regard operating under reduced margins of safety as "worthy of merit?" How will you feel about them when your chief pilot informs you that a junior crewmember is being ungraded ahead of you because he's had fewer diversions for weather, fewer write-ups, less calls for de-icing, or less elapsed time between block-out and take-off? I hope your company has new airplanes, short checklists, and only flies in good weather...

How will you react when you learn that the company is opening a bid for a new type aircraft, and that preference will be given for people already type-rated in that equipment? Getting your own type in a transport-category isn't cheap. I hope you (or your wife, or your Daddy) have deep pockets...

Or maybe they'll open a new crew base, and give preference to those crewmembers who already live within close proximity to the airport. I hope you have a moving truck...

The bottom line is that in this business, you are hired based on merit, after which your opportunities for promotion are rooted in (but not assured by)seniority. You cannot positively affect one without negatively impacting the other.

Dan, no one is saying you don't have a pilot contract. Everything you're worried about is contractural. You guys keep citing ICAO, well, this is how ICAO carriers do it for the most part. You want to improve this gig? Let's do it right! This won't be the last time we hear from pilots on this issue, and here is why I'm bringing this up: A majority of guys with your perogative are going to be right back for more in a few years. This won't be the financial salvation many of you think, and since it's the easiest money you've ever made, you'll want more. It will start with SWA pilots wanting to work to 70 (or so) and before long you'll all be on board.

Secondly, this isn't going to help contract negotiations in the future. Most of us are going to want raises in a few years. If we can get some raises, the age change beneficiaries are going to want a bunch of dough too, on top of what they've received age 60+. However, they aren't going to be "reformer" types that will push for all of us in earnest because they already are getting most of the money. They'll be happy to get some more money, but won't risk the pot of gold they're sitting on. Our effort will be spilt before we even start talks.

Let's change it once, make it no age limit, and let the company staff it like ICAO carriers.

I'm surprised your concerned about what mgts might do. Mgt periodically mortgages employee's career earnings to foot the bill and this age change does the same thing. You are advocating the exact same tactics mgts use.

 

[Flopgut]

I believe that is what I pointed out to you. Take your blinders off. You want to change the industry so the ace of the base, such as your self, can be number one on the list. But you don't think a forty something year old arbitrary age should change. Ok, it's all about you and what benefits the gut. Your convincing argument swayed me, I'm all for what is good for the gut. Law doesn't change. Issue resolved.

I'll be the first to admit, it won't help me. I just got captain upgrade. I don't know why I haven't changed my mind, it is a lot of money! But it ain't all about me. I want to see good decisions made, this is only lateral.

 

[Flybynite]

I'll be the first to admit, it won't help me. I just got captain upgrade. I don't know why I haven't changed my mind, it is a lot of money! But it ain't all about me. I want to see good decisions made, this is only lateral.

I was going to reply, then i remembered: Arguing on the internet is like........

Well good luck to you after the age change.

 

[scrub]

the heck with raising the age to 65, I'm trying to get my congressman to ban all flights before 8 AM

 

[Dizel8]

nay!!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Exxon has airline standards for a good reason

Exxon Corporation knows its executives deserve the best standard operating procedures known and uses those standards to keep its employees safe.

An ISO 9001-14001 corporation using the best worldwide standards available is a model to be recognized and considered as the best.

I know all you broke 55+ airline pilots will disagree, but then if you had sound judgement you would have saved your money and made smart decisions that would have allowed you to get out of the game when you wanted verse keeping a death grip till the last day.

And just remember, if you'all are successful in extending this deal I hope you can pass the new medical because the standards will increase for all.

A corporate pilot for ExxonMobil has filed an age-discrimination suit via the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission saying the company forces its pilots to quit flying at 60. The EEOC is seeking a permanent injunction against the company’s mandatory pilot-retirement policy.

 

[FoxHunter]

Exxon Corporation knows its executives deserve the best standard operating procedures known and uses those standards to keep its employees safe.

An ISO 9001-14001 corporation using the best worldwide standards available is a model to be recognized and considered as the best.

I know all you broke 55+ airline pilots will disagree, but then if you had sound judgement you would have saved your money and made smart decisions that would have allowed you to get out of the game when you wanted verse keeping a death grip till the last day.

And just remember, if you'all are successful in extending this deal I hope you can pass the new medical because the standards will increase for all.

A corporate pilot for ExxonMobil has filed an age-discrimination suit via the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission saying the company forces its pilots to quit flying at 60. The EEOC is seeking a permanent injunction against the company’s mandatory pilot-retirement policy.

The new FAS has said that there will be no change in medical standards if the age rule changes.

The ExxonMobile pilot will win change or no change for FAR121.

 

[b757driver]

Exxon Corporation knows its executives deserve the best standard operating procedures known and uses those standards to keep its employees safe.

An ISO 9001-14001 corporation using the best worldwide standards available is a model to be recognized and considered as the best.

I know all you broke 55+ airline pilots will disagree, but then if you had sound judgement you would have saved your money and made smart decisions that would have allowed you to get out of the game when you wanted verse keeping a death grip till the last day.

And just remember, if you'all are successful in extending this deal I hope you can pass the new medical because the standards will increase for all.

A corporate pilot for ExxonMobil has filed an age-discrimination suit via the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission saying the company forces its pilots to quit flying at 60. The EEOC is seeking a permanent injunction against the company’s mandatory pilot-retirement policy.

OK, Mr. Smarty Pants, I'm assuming you have always made smart decisions and things have always gone your way, mo matter what.
BIG assumptions, my friend!
Who said that ALL 55+ pilots do not and have not lived within their means??
How can you second guess what this "wonderful" industry will do next?
Are you really telling me that we should have ALL gazed into the cyrstal ball and said, yep, this is the airline for me, financially sound, I can hang up my hat here until retirement, no problem? Well, are you?
It matters NOT how diligent a person may have been 10, 20 or even more years ago, even the "best" airlines have folded, gotten into bankruptcy, you name it.
With a moniker like yours, I'm surprised you're coming out with this kind of statement.
I'm not saying all pilots have been astute with their financials, but as we all know - or should - airlines are not exactly a secure, comfortable career anymore. It is nigh on impossible to predict or plan for the future. As you name suggests, most are just lucky to HAVE a flying job - forget the pension, raises and promotions. That's yester-year.
As always, this comes down to basic freedom of choices. If you want to get out at a certain age, then by all means do so but to prevent others from doing so, based on your reasoning and assumptions is clearly wrong!
Who said the medical standards are going to be raised?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Washington Headquarters Press Release

For Immediate Release

Release No. AOC 29-06
September 27, 2006
Contact: Alison Duquette
Phone: (202) 267-3883
New FAA Forum to Review Age 60 Rule For Pilots

WASHINGTON, DC — Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Administrator Marion C. Blakey today established a forum of airline, labor and medical experts to recommend whether the United States should adopt the new International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard that will allow one of the two pilots in the flight deck to be over age 60. The forum also will determine what actions would be necessary if the FAA were to change its rule.
“The FAA must ensure that any future rule change, should it occur, provides an equal or better level of safety to passengers,” said Blakey. “I’m looking forward to hearing from the experts so the FAA can make informed decisions as the ICAO standard is implemented and Congress considers this issue.”
Since 1959, the FAA has required that all U.S. pilots stop flying commercial airplanes at age 60. In November, ICAO, the United Nations’ aviation organization, will increase the upper age limit for pilots to age 65, provided that one of the two pilots in the cockpit is under age 60.
The Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee has been tasked to complete its work within 60 days. Committee members will represent airlines, pilot unions, medical experts, and the FAA.

 

[Phaedrus]

Yay! A new cut and paste from UnDonTed!

 

[tomgoodman]

No action this year?

The Age 60 Aviation Rulemaking Committee has been tasked to complete its work within 60 days. Committee members will represent airlines, pilot unions, medical experts, and the FAA.

Then the FAA mulls over the report, issues the NPRM for public comment if needed, etc. This gives Congress a perfect excuse, if they want one, to duck the issue until next year, and perhaps indefinitely.

 

[General Lee]

Then the FAA mulls over the report, issues the NPRM for public comment if needed, etc. This gives Congress a perfect excuse, if they want one, to duck the issue until next year, and perhaps indefinitely.

Good. Hopefully they will mull it over for years, and then hopefully all of the senior guys with a lack of situational awareness (very dangerous) will have retired. That is best for all of us. Lack of situational awareness trumps 30 or more years of experience anyday.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Andy]

Yay! A new cut and paste from UnDonTed!

He's a member of the committee.