Age 60 informal poll

[UndauntedFlyer]

The facts are that there is no more evidence for or against changing the age-60 rule from a safety point of view. For every study that says one thing there is another study that says the opposite. FAA Administrator Blakey even made this statement on her recorded (on video) reply to a question at the EAA's Sun'N Fun Convention.

Many members of this Board post this and that survey and quote this and that expert, all of which become confusing to the general public, so things need to be simplified for the public to better understand and have an opinion. Well it has been simplified, it’s the ICAO change and it can not get any easier or simpler than that for people to understand. Now the issue can be understood by all. It’s double discrimination: Against Americans and discrimination against seniors by young people.

Therefore the only discussion now is on the ICAO implementation scheduled for November 23. That will happen without further discussion of fact. The FAA has said it will happen. So what more can be discussed, nothing.

No one believes that foreigners are healthier than Americans and yet they will be flying into all of our countries airports in the same airplanes and on the same airways. Politically this will not fly so changes must be made. Pressure is building as the media is picking up on this story. The media is looking at the unkind comments being made by young people on this issue, many of which are found on this Board. The media is also picking up on and making a point of the flip flops of ALPA as that organization has tried to attract younger pilots, only at the expense of getting rid of the experienced Captain who is in excellent health. For anyone to support these young people who feel they have an entitlement to a senior pilot’s seat is now politically incorrect. Such a position is being abandoned by every politician and even the FAA.

Beating up on senior citizens doesn't go over anywhere and the newspapers are beginning to have a field day with those who choose to discriminate against senior captains. Just consider the Chicago Tribune, one of the most respected pagers in the country and the 4th largest, ran a feature news story above the front page fold just a few weeks ago, and that story was picked up and run by hundreds of other papers across the USA.

Trust me. Change is coming to the USA on the age 60 issue. My guess it that it will be November 23. 2006.

 

[Phaedrus]

I don't know what is more irritating.
Klako and Undaunted's Swiss Alps echos,
or the cut and paste routine that makes
me have to move my page left to right
to read this ridiculous thread.
I know, I know, I'm a "cut-and-pastist".

 

[Andy]

It looks like Sen Stevens stuffed S. 65 into HR 5576, the DOT's appropriations bill in section 114. It's an amendment that was added in Senate appropriations subcommittee. It can be pulled if a Senator stops it on the floor, but the resistance has been minimal thus far. If the Senate passes HR 5576, it goes back to the House to hammer out the differences. Section 114 can also be pulled at that point, but subcommittees often do some strange things.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The resistance has been minimal thus far.

See UndauntedFlyer's post above for reasons why.

 

[Phaedrus]

See UndauntedFlyer's post above for reasons why.

Okay, but only if you quit referring to yourself in the third person. Who are you? Bob Dole?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

"A house divided against itself can not stand" It must become all of one thing or all of the other.

Is there a person on this board who believes that this country will stay divided on the age 60 rule for ever while the rest of the world's ICAO carriers continue to fly throughout American with a different retirement age rule? I think not.

So when will the FAA rule change to harmonize with the rest of the world?

My guess is November 23, 2006.

What is yours?

 

[Phaedrus]

My guess is I don't don't care what your guess is.
"A house divided cannot stand". Please apply this cliche, in specific detail, to this situation. Otherwise it is simply a passe cliche. Enough French for today.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

June 16, 1858 - Springfield, IL - Abraham Lincoln

Mr. President and Gentlemen of the Convention.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half of one mind and half of another.
I do not expect the Union to be dissolved -- I do not expect the house to fall -- but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other.

The aviation community is divided on the age-60 rule. This can not continue with the upcoming discrimination against Americans starting November 23. Add to this the loss of pensions that brings forth important retirement issues. Agitation on this issue has continued for years and is now coming to a head over the ICAO change. Change will come soon. Does anyone doubt this?

As it says in the bible, "A house divided against itself can not stand."

 

[Jonny Sacko]

EXCELLENT, CHANGE IS COMING!! YOU CAN STAY PAST 60, until 80, but it will be in the right seat at starting wages! There, now you won't ******************** me anylonger. I didn't steal your retirement. NOR WILL LET ANYONE STEAL MINE!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

EXCELLENT, CHANGE IS COMING!! YOU CAN STAY PAST 60, until 80, but it will be in the right seat at starting wages! There, now you won't ******************** me anylonger. I didn't steal your retirement. NOR WILL LET ANYONE STEAL MINE!

Is there a point to this comment?

We are all just along for the ride in this career. And like the market it goes up and down. None of us have much more control over the ride than we do the market.

 

[Flybynite]

EXCELLENT, CHANGE IS COMING!! YOU CAN STAY PAST 60, until 80, but it will be in the right seat at starting wages! There, now you won't ******************** me anylonger. I didn't steal your retirement. NOR WILL LET ANYONE STEAL MINE!

Jocko, everything can't be about you. Everything is about me, me, me.

 

[Phaedrus]

Undaunted, false analogy. Try again.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undaunted, false analogy. Try again.

Do we need another Civil War to prove this or what?

I just want to take all you FI members to my 60 birthday party in HNL. It's going to be a big celebration. I love you all.

UndauntedFlyer

 

[Flopgut]

Undaunted: Are you UAL? You act like it.

A house divided? Well, how do you propose we UN divide the house? You're the expert, you love us all?! Do we un-divide it now so people can work to 65, and then be asked to UN divide it AGAIN so pilots like you can work to 68 or 70? UN-divide the house when UAL pilots ruined the careers of the original Frontier guys, or when UAL guys want to staple America West? You're all about DIVIDING the house! If we had never had the first guy like you, we would have never had the second! I tell you what, I'll go to your party if you agree to show at a party at the house of a furloughed pilots' family. Maybe a child's b-day or Christmas, we'll see how you like that celebration.

Problem might be seniority. I've spoke of changing the system previously and I don't want to go into that any further per say; But consider this: Undaunted, Klako, and the like, probably would not have the job they have now if we had rostering and assignments. Pilots/individuals who have ended up with the desparate position of needing to steal away another's time in this career wouldn't fare too well in a heads up "fight" for the job. Quality individuals take care of themselves and prepare, and aren't afraid to work. Weak ones are always weak and the first ones to beg something extra or steal something from another.

Give these guys five more years now, 90% of them will right back for more.

 

[Phaedrus]

Another Civil War? That is misdirection. Again, your cliche doesn't apply and your analogy was erroneous. We don't need a "Civil War", but we do need a little reason.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Pilots/individuals who have ended up with the desparate position of needing to steal away another's time in this career wouldn't fare too well in a heads up "fight" for the job.

That will come as news to the tens-of-thousands of pilots (most of whom were/are impeccably credentialed) who have seen their pensions wiped out by the bankruptcy of their parent carriers.

Weak ones are always weak and the first ones to beg something extra or steal something from another.

In order for something to be "stolen" from you, you must first OWN it. It must be in your possession. If you are now a Captain, you will still be one after they abolish the rule. I guarantee it!

If you are not now a Captain, you won't be one after they dump this rule, either. In which case, no harm, no foul.

Where in your contract, or for that matter, in your expectations for this job, did it say that at some specific point in your career you would be entitled to upgrade to Captain? When did that become your "right," and not merely an opportunity? What else have you done to insure that that would happen? Voted to allow smaller airplanes onto your ramp, thus requiring a need for more Captains? Have you lowered your wages, so your company could grow?

If "careers in aviation" came with horn buttons, you'd be blasting the $hit out of yours, I'll bet.

Quality individuals take care of themselves and prepare, and aren't afraid to work.

Now it makes sense. You're an airline manager, aren't you?

Which one? Lorenzo? Icahn? Wolfe? Maybe somebody in the management track at Mesaba? Come on, you can level with me. I won't tell anyone.

Yea, that's the problem with people these days. They're all low-quality individuals, unable to take care of themselves, unwilling to prepare, and too lazy to work. Especially Pilots...

 

[Phaedrus]

Where in your contract, or for that matter, in your expectations for this job, did it say that at some specific point in your career you would be entitled to

an extra five years in the left seat at the expense of those before you, those currently flying with you, and even those that come after you?
Talk about expectations...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Isn't it strange how the discussion on this board has totally moved to promotions and expectations. Safety is no longer an issue because it was always BS. So now I'm just supposed to quit and give up my career because the F/O's call me greedy and other names. Is that really a reason do you think? I don't think so. Maybe if you had said please, but that won't work now, it's too late for sweet talk.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Andy is getting promoted

Andy is an officer and a gentlemen he tells me.

In fact he is getting promoted and I was invited to his pinning. I am honored but I can't make it because I have to work on the age-60 issue and then the next day it's off the the "salt mine" for another three days of "work."

Maybe Klako can go.

Congratulations Andy!

Andy:
It's LtCol USAFR as of 1 October. You're welcome to come to my pinning on ceremony at the Ft Belvoir Officer's Club on 27 Sep at 1500. I'll be having an open bar and hors d'euvres.

I invited Andy to my 60th in HNL but he says he can't make it either.

 

[Flopgut]

That will come as news to the tens-of-thousands of pilots (most of whom were/are impeccably credentialed) who have seen their pensions wiped out by the bankruptcy of their parent carriers.

In order for something to be "stolen" from you, you must first OWN it. Where in your contract, or for that matter, in your expectations for this job, did it say that at some specific point in your career you would be entitled to upgrade to Captain? When did that become your "right," and not merely an opportunity?

If "careers in aviation" came with horn buttons, you'd be blasting the $hit out of yours, I'll bet.

Now it makes sense. You're an airline manager, aren't you?

Which one? Lorenzo? Icahn? Wolfe? Maybe somebody in the management track at Mesaba? Come on, you can level with me. I won't tell anyone.

Yea, that's the problem with pilots these days. They're all low-quality individuals, unable to take care of themselves, unwilling to prepare, and too lazy to work. Especially for fast-food wages.

Whistler: If you want to see arrogant, entitlement in print just read your posts my friend. You won't read any "horntooting" in my posts...ask anybody. You're a mess pal.

There are NO career expectations past age 60 for airline captains in this business. ZERO! That is the basis for all remmuneration and QOL in the airline business; Decades of collective bargaining. Those were the terms of YOUR career progression, that's what I want for myself, and that's what I want to see passed on to others. If you want more years, outside the terms of a CBA, then you desire to become a replacement worker.

I've explained this to you before, I have experience in this. I am the son of an airline pilot who lost his job and had his pension taken at 50 years old. I know how hard it is from first hand experience. He had a plan, got the family earnings back on track and started a new career, which he later retired form as an exec. Of course it wasn't easy, but he did it. And since you and your ilk are convinced that your talents and abilities are so special, I'd like to see you tackle the same challenges he did! How's that sound bud? You're throwing down the "give me a tough checkride" crap on here like you got the whole game beat...Well, how about you go take those mad skills out for a spin and get a job? If you are half as good as you think you are you'll have no problem, right? Wrong. You can't do that. Easier to just beg some extra time in your current spot. You ARE too lazy to work and you ARE the problem!

BTW, I just got my upgrade. Somehow that has not changed my opinion on things.

Greater a chump is the person who wants 5 more years legislated to them, than the person who wants an existing retirement age to remain in place to sustain them. Seniority is the promise that the career will provide the best thing available when it's your turn. We all get a shot at it.

 

[pipe]

Isn't it strange how the discussion on this board has totally moved to promotions and expectations. Safety is no longer an issue because it was always BS. So now I'm just supposed to quit and give up my career because the F/O's call me greedy and other names. Is that really a reason do you think? I don't think so. Maybe if you had said please, but that won't work now, it's too late for sweet talk.

I'll say please.

Please go away. We all know where you stand. That's great. The VAST majority of us disagree for various reasons. We own those reasons. You won't change that. We won't change your opinion. Please stop!

One more please.

Moderators - please pull the plug on this tired thread.

PIPE

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

There are NO career expectations past age 60 for airline captains in this business. ZERO!

That's why I'm urging my Senator to pass this legislation. That way, the next time you or anybody else says, "There are no expectations past age 60 for airline captains in this business," I can say, "Oh yes there are! Read the new law that allows us to fly until the age of 65." And you sir may absolutely, positively, 100% count on the fact that if I am physically able, I WILL fly to that age.

You didn't "expect" that a law totally unsupported by fact, one that is unknown to aviation in most of the world and that didn't exist for for first 50 years of commercial aviation, would ever be changed?

Well, boo-freakin'-hoo, pardner. You're on notice. You can definitely expect it now.

(Jeeze...and to think that these are the same guys who contend that it's the old guys who "lack situational awareness" and the ability to assimilate new tasks and job descriptions. <Sigh...>)

I would make one suggestion. If the thought of spending a few more years in each of the seats and equipment types that your company operates makes this job simply untenable for you, I would suggest that you find another line of work as soon as possible. You're not going to like this, or some of the other changes that are coming down the pike.

I am the son of an airline pilot who lost his job and had his pension taken at 50 years old. I know how hard it is from first hand experience. He had a plan, got the family earnings back on track and started a new career, which he later retired form as an exec. Of course it wasn't easy, but he did it. And since you and your ilk are convinced that your talents and abilities are so special, I'd like to see you tackle the same challenges he did!

Why should I? I have a job, and the future of my company is somewhat assured, at least until after I retire. I don't need to "start a new career." Like your father, I too, "have a plan." In my case, it's utilizing my talents to preserve the job I have. That includes working dilligently to bring this "age 60" nonsense to an end.

By the way, you seem to feel that whatever success is enjoyed by those who came before you is directly at your expense. I'm curious...what new career did your father go into? And as he became more successful in his field, did his presence not serve to keep others from attaining higher goals?

I think your Dad should have stayed home and drawn Social Security, and let the younger guys have a shot at some of those "executive positions" at which he served. He had no business "stealing" a position at 50 years old, that so many junior staffers were hoping to get.

 

[b757driver]

That's why I'm urging my Senator to pass this legislation. That way, the next time you or anybody else says, "There are no expectations past age 60 for airline captains in this business," I can say, "Oh yes there are! Read the new law that allows us to fly until the age of 65." And you sir may absolutely, positively, 100% count on the fact that if I am physically able, I WILL fly to that age.

You didn't "expect" that a law totally unsupported by fact, one that is unknown to aviation in most of the world and that didn't exist for for first 50 years of commercial aviation, would ever be changed?

Well, boo-freakin'-hoo, pardner. You're on notice. You can definitely expect it now.

(Jeeze...and to think that these are the same guys who contend that it's the old guys who "lack situational awareness" and the ability to assimilate new tasks and job descriptions. <Sigh...>)

I would make one suggestion. If the thought of spending a few more years in each of the seats and equipment types that your company operates makes this job simply untenable for you, I would suggest that you find another line of work as soon as possible. You're not going to like this, or some of the other changes that are coming down the pike.

Why should I? I have a job, and the future of my company is somewhat assured, at least until after I retire. I don't need to "start a new career." Like your father, I too, "have a plan." In my case, it's utilizing my talents to preserve the job I have. That includes working dilligently to bring this "age 60" nonsense to an end.

By the way, you seem to feel that whatever success is enjoyed by those who came before you is directly at your expense. I'm curious...what new career did your father go into? And as he became more successful in his field, did his presence not serve to keep others from attaining higher goals?

I think your Dad should have stayed home and drawn Social Security, and let the younger guys have a shot at some of those "executive positions" at which he served. He had no business "stealing" a position at 50 years old, that so many junior staffers were hoping to get.

Brilliant, just brilliant!!:beer:

You hit it on the nail. No one ever said life was fair and the airline biz is no exception in that respect. We all have our "hard luck" stories. All the more reason why people should have a CHOICE without hindrance or malice. Those that want should (and never mind the reasons) and those that don't, can retire whenever they want. It has absolutely nothing to do with safety, stealing or any other similar nonsense. That's just smoke and mirrors.
It's about freedom of choice. This is America, isn't it??

Change is always difficult for some while others embrace it and get on with it

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Whistlin' Dan: Great Post!

 

[Flopgut]

Whistler: I don't care so much about what the law reads. I care about the agreement made between all of us that is seniority. This is byzentine, old school, deep blue unity, and brotherhood stuff and obviously...it's lost on you! Decades of collective bargaining have created an earnings framework that is based on age 60 retirement. If you want to covet that it's basically like crossing a picket line. The labor reality such as it is I think it is very poor form to be begging a change like this now. There are too many pilots furloughed and too many future airline pilots at war right now to make this change a good thing. They deserve a chance.

Now, I'm perfectly OK with a change to the rule. But I think it should include a proper adjustment so there are no windfalls. Personally, I like rostering and assignments. Career progression based solely on seniority combined with a simple age change is going to weaken this business. Make it so the guy/girl who just left the desert flush with skills and a hungry desire to succeed can contest for the best in this business. Just think, you won't have to screw up on that tough checkride your jones'n for, just not do quite as well as the next pilot and-- your jerkin gear!

Basically, if we change the age, the best job in this business should go to the best pilots. NOT just the most senior. Then you can actually say you EARNED it.

My dad was a Sr. Dir. at a publicly traded financial services company. He did very well. There is a complete absence of the seniority dynamic in that line of work so, NO, his presence there wasn't preventing another from having a good job. The instant someone better wanted the job, he was out. (He bowed out at the top and he still turns down work after years of retirement) That's a tough mandate to live under. Why do we see so many oldsters booted out of the work force? Too many can't hang! Airline pilots have been insulated thus far and too many already have enjoyed more than they would have had otherwise. Knowing what I know about a non seniority based career endeavors, I don't have to wonder who could cut it and who couldn't. Basically, if your crying and complaining about needing more time in this business, you couldn't make it without seniority, the free labor market would eat you up. Simultaneously, there are too many old workers out there who were dealt out of the free market workforce, and almost none dealt out of the airline business, for you to suggest that most can continue to cut the gig in declining years absent seniority.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm curious...what new career did your father go into? And as he became more successful in his field, did his presence not serve to keep others from attaining higher goals?quote]

Please explain this.

He DID become more succesful and there was no seniority. What's your point? Are you actually trying to suggest something about yourself? Are you truly so delusional that you think because you're more senior, you're more succesful?

If at all so, you're definintly the sort that can't hang. The streets are full of people like you.

 

[Phaedrus]

Talk about hitting the nail on the head...
Eloquent, concise post Mr. Flopgut.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

There is no point in talking about changing all the rules. It has taken 48 years to change just one rule, and so the age-60 is changing. So now lets just deal with it as it's going to be. It is a total waist of everybody’s time to talk about extreme changes in the seniority system. Such changes have no chance of happening. The change in the verbiage for the new FAR will be exactly the same as the ICAO rule.

 

[Phaedrus]

I wonder why Undaunted's Master Warning light came on?

 

[Gorilla]

Sadly, what I'm afraid will happen if/when this passes is yet another "list"... this one of guys over 60 still flying. You'll see some cockpit conflict for sure, with no doubt some very unexpected maladies popping up just prior to departure. Not saying it's right, just that it'll happen.