Age 60 informal poll

[Sluggo_63]

City, State and Federal retirements go with those mandatory early outs. Where's ours?

I realize they all have retirements. So do most pilots. It may not be as much as they thought, but they have one nonetheless.

Either way. This was in response to a post citing 'age discrimination' as a reason to abolish the age 60 rule. Just because someone gets paid, doesn't make it any less discriminatory.

 

[Phaedrus]

Again, discrimination schmiscrimination. If you want to play that tune then offer up an age that isn't "discriminatory". A great philosopher once said, "Know thyself". It ain't discrimination that's got your panties in a wad.

 

[Flopgut]

“Know thyself, know thy enemy”, Gen Shun Tzu author of The Art Of War, a 2000+ year old battlefield manual still popular in management studies today. The manual instructs that on “death ground” (imminent defeat) “steal something from your enemy that is precious to them”. (I suppose an airline pilot who is, for whatever reason, unprepared to retire and approaching 60 might feel like this). An age change proponent would be stealing something precious from his enemy when he steals the seniority of those junior to him for sure.
Normally you don’t lose a “battle” with superior numbers and a valid cause. But, in this case defeat might be forced on us. So, let’s stick to the manual. It will then be our turn to steal something precious from our enemy. I propose a Z scale to our CBAs. Age 60+ wages will diminish. Maybe max pay of 50K, that can only be used for health care and retirement savings for instance. How’s that sound?

 

[3BCat]

Again, discrimination schmiscrimination. If you want to play that tune then offer up an age that isn't "discriminatory". A great philosopher once said, "Know thyself". It ain't discrimination that's got your panties in a wad.

Hi Phaedrus. No age limit - No discrimination.

 

[Klako]

“Know thyself, know thy enemy”, Gen Shun Tzu author of The Art Of War, a 2000+ year old battlefield manual still popular in management studies today. The manual instructs that on “death ground” (imminent defeat) “steal something from your enemy that is precious to them”. (I suppose an airline pilot who is, for whatever reason, unprepared to retire and approaching 60 might feel like this). An age change proponent would be stealing something precious from his enemy when he steals the seniority of those junior to him for sure.
Normally you don’t lose a “battle” with superior numbers and a valid cause. But, in this case defeat might be forced on us. So, let’s stick to the manual. It will then be our turn to steal something precious from our enemy. I propose a Z scale to our CBAs. Age 60+ wages will diminish. Maybe max pay of 50K, that can only be used for health care and retirement savings for instance. How’s that sound?

“steals the seniority of those junior to him” That is the biggest bunch of bull that I have read yet on this thread. This of course, is the typical junior ALPA/APA attitude. You junior ALPA/APA twerps who think that the left seat is your birth right had better get used to the fact that the mandatory retirement will likely change to 65 within a year.
The only stealing going on has been the junior pilots stealing the left seat from the pilots who have earned that position and for all the rights of decency and fairness they should be allowed to keep it past age 60 if they should choose.
I had one of those obnoxious, arrogant young ALPA guys in my jump seat today spouting his disdain for the “old farts stagnating the seniority list”. He obviously did not have a clue that I turn 60 this year. I almost told him to take off his offensive ALPA pin before he could ride in my cockpit.

 

[jbDC9]

The only stealing going on has been the junior pilots stealing the left seat from the pilots who have earned that position and for all the rights of decency and fairness they should be allowed to keep it past age 60 if they should choose.

Umm, I hate to break it to ya, but the only way you "earned" that left seat position was the Age 60 rule... you know, back when you were an FO, the old guys retired so you could move up to that lofty Left Seat? Perhaps you've forgotten this small detail?

 

[Flopgut]

Klako: I'm not APA, I work for CAL with around 10 years longevity.

FYI: My father had 22+ years with an ALPA carrier when he lost his job and pension. I say that, not for sympathy, but to communicate to you that I am not confused about how bad it is to lose retirement savings and have to go to plan B. Anybody that wants this change for the money, I say: gut it out! My family did. And BTW, my father had to tolerate plenty of crap from arrogant twerps from your generation, so keep your thoughts to yourself and be generous with your JS. It belonged to someone else before it was yours; you think your the only pilot that has ever turned 60? Talk about arrogant.

If my ten years means nothing then why should your [blank] years matter? If seniority was in any way a determinent in your career progression (which of course it was), then when it's getting handed out for free it should be distributed in some way. Age 60+ can go to the right seat at the bottom of the list IMHO. I also think it would be smart to garner age 60+ earnings so you don't go blow it. If this rule changes your a replacement worker, plain and simple. (You get super seniority outside any CBA) NOT a scab, but the effect will be the same on my career and the careers of at least a 2/3rds majority. Am I suppose to be happy about this?

Well, it might be happening irregardless of any of our feelings. What I would caution you to consider is that a majority of pilots don't want this changed. You might want to find some middle ground on this issue. You might not like how the majority of pilots want this implemented in our contracts.

 

[Flopgut]

I'll admit that I'm softening up on this issue. There is a CA Jim Smyth that posts on here and he described his seniority at SWA. Basically, he's a senior CA but is nearly the same number he hired on at. Great for him and pretty neat for SWA's growth, but there are more people that have won 10+ million dollar lottery jackpots than have found themselves in that situation. Is that what we want to make this job, a lottery? He!! no! Let's give everybody the best deal we can. Even CA Smyth's career has progressed through seniority, albetit very little, it still counts.

Klako: Your not really up to speed here. If you read you post you admit to stealing seniority yourself! "The only stealing going on has been the junior pilots stealing the left seat from the pilots who have earned that position and for all the rights of decency and fairness they should be allowed to keep it past age 60 if they should choose."

What seat are you in? Were you never junior?

 

[Klako]

I'll admit that I'm softening up on this issue. There is a CA Jim Smyth that posts on here and he described his seniority at SWA. Basically, he's a senior CA but is nearly the same number he hired on at. Great for him and pretty neat for SWA's growth, but there are more people that have won 10+ million dollar lottery jackpots than have found themselves in that situation. Is that what we want to make this job, a lottery? He!! no! Let's give everybody the best deal we can. Even CA Smyth's career has progressed through seniority, albetit very little, it still counts.

Klako: Your not really up to speed here. If you read you post you admit to stealing seniority yourself! "The only stealing going on has been the junior pilots stealing the left seat from the pilots who have earned that position and for all the rights of decency and fairness they should be allowed to keep it past age 60 if they should choose."

What seat are you in? Were you never junior?

When I hired on with the company that I now work for, I was 42 and was older than about 95% of the pilots senior to me. I earned my place my helping my company expand. We do not have a defined benefit pension, only a 401K. In 6 months I will be forced out of my profession with only a small 401K, without medical coverage and it is becoming painfully obvious that nobody wants to hire a 60 year old. I can look forward to possibly losing everything if the rule dose not change soon. So, it is fair that people like me should be forced into poverty so some ALPA/APA pilot can get a better schedule and upgrade sooner.
ALPA and APA have been cutting their own throats with greed and misdeeds. To my knowledge there are only two organized labor unions that now oppose a change to the “Age 60 Rule”, ALPA and APA. This begs the question, what legitimate labor union would actively support a rule which discriminates against its own members, forces them to leave their workplaces and leaves them with reduced benefits?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I propose a Z scale to our CBAs. Age 60+ wages will diminish. Maybe max pay of 50K, that can only be used for health care and retirement savings for instance. How’s that sound?

If nothing else, I'm sure it will receive the full support of airline management.

Just think! In 15 or 20 years, when you and all your age-60 peers are working for 50K, you can tell them, "Yea, that was my idea!"

 

[jbDC9]

When I hired on with the company that I now work for, I was 42 and was older than about 95% of the pilots senior to me. I earned my place by helping my company expand.

You've mentioned several times "earning" your place... again, here's a news flash for you; we're all doing that. We hire on, go to work and "help the company expand", while senior, older guys retire at 60, enabling us (including you) to move up. You're no different from the rest of us, except for your being 42 when hired on. But, you knew the Age 60 rule was in place then, correct?

Why is this all so hard to understand? All current 121 pilots have benefitted from this rule... including the senior guys at the top. The senior dudes bitch and moan about the "greedy junior guys"... never mind the fact that they used to be greedy junior guys themselves.

 

[Klako]

ALPA and APA no longer have any credibility in telling Congress that the "Age 60 Rule" must not change. This is because the Airline Pilots Association's (ALPA) has now signed Canadian air carrier “Jazz” to a contract allowing pilots to fly to age 65. ALPA represents Jazz and has approved a contract that set pensions at age 60 and allows flight to age 65. Additionally, ALPA's President Duane Woerth publicly stated that he would sign any ALPA over age 60 contract for a United States carrier if the Age 60 Rule were changed in the US.

Beginning on 23 November 2006, foreign air carriers will be allowed to operate large aircraft engaged in commercial air carrier operations within United States airspace and some of those aircraft will be the piloted by pilots that are over the age of 60. United States FAR Part 121 pilots, however, who are over age 60 will all still be grounded unless the Congress passes Senate Bill S.65 or House of Representatives Bill H.R.65.

 

[Klako]

Motives
By Steve Jacques​

As I have become more involved in the Age 60 issue, and have had the opportunity to listen to more and more pilots input on the subject, it appears that the question of motive is raised frequently. Many of those opposed to any change are usually the first to ask; "why would anyone want to work beyond 60?" That is a very good question.
From my perspective, the answer is very clear. For the most part, those leading the charge are unable to retire at 60. "What's this! Those high paid senior pilots crying poverty! Why don't they take their 30 year pensions and retire with dignity!!" Well, it's not quite that simple. What follows in my unscientific model of the average pilot who is in the forefront of the Age 60-rule change movement.
AGE: Late 40's
MARITAL STATUS: Married, 3 children (2 currently in college)
YEARS IN AVIATION: 25+
YEARS WITH PRESENT AIRLINE: 3
CURRENT STATUS: F/O, B-757
NUMBER OF PREVIOUS AIRLINES: 3 (furloughed from one, others went bankrupt)
CURRENT FINANCAL STATUS: Marginal - Still paying off medical bills incurred while out of work with no insurance. Almost lost home to bank.
RETIREMENT PACKAGE: Nil
The statistics listed above do not describe any particular person, but do describe a core group of pilots who work for various airlines, and whose mission is to try to continue to work for those airlines because of previous unfortunate circumstances (I am not referring to a specific group such as the PPF). They do not want charity; they do not want sympathy… they want to provide as best they can for the welfare of their family and their later years (which aren't so far away).
This core group is not concerned with greed, nor with losing status because of forced retirement. They simply have not had the opportunity to put in 30 years with the same company in order to garner the seniority and the retirement package that others have. They are not looking to "rob" anyone else of a job, or a chance to upgrade. They feel that there are ideas already being tendered that will allow everyone on every side of the issue to be satisfied with an extended age FAR.
Are there others not in this core group who wish to work beyond 60? Yes. Do they already have enough to retire on comfortably? Probably. Will some of these people opt to work beyond 60 if the rule is changed? Most likely. But does it really matter? If protection is guaranteed to those who wish to retire at 60, and to those who want the quickest possible upgrade, does it matter? Do we mind, as a pilot group, if those who need to work longer can have the chance to do so? Would you want the same consideration in 20 years if your career doesn't quite go the way you planned?

These questions, and others put forth by individuals in our greater pilot community will define the debate as the months go on. I invite you to ask your own tough questions to yourself and others. But above all, I ask you to see the shades of gray between the black and white of the issue.
Please let me leave you with one final thought. Put yourself in the "unscientific model" specified above. If you have ever experienced moderate to severe financial trauma, this will probably be easy to you. Then "walk the walk" of that individual, and ask yourself if there can be a win/win solution to raising the retirement age.​

 

[Klako]

You're no different from the rest of us, except for your being 42 when hired on. But, you knew the Age 60 rule was in place then, correct?

When I first started flying, an old Western Airlines captain assured me that the age 60 rule would eventually be abolished before it could affect me. This Western guy was active then with ALPA in trying to abolish the age 60 rule and I recall while I was still in high school helping him stuff envelopes for Western pilots in their effort to change the rule. I can honestly tell you that I have been a supporter of changing the rule ever sense. I would have never guessed that it could still be around in 2006.

 

[Flopgut]

So Klako, this really has ambushed you? You were just sure it would be abolished? Right. So I should have to pay for this?

Look, if you earned your place because you posses abilities none of the rest of us do, then you'll have no problem finding other employment.

Doesn't matter what any of us think, it might change this time. What you might want to be concerned with is how the majority of pilots want this implemented into thier CBAs.