Age 60 informal poll

[Flopgut]

But it's OK for you if you're 59 when the rule changes, right?

No. It is not.

 

[Flopgut]

Bob Lavender is a person of the highest of character. He resigned from ALPA because no one there has the slightest foresight. What Bob writes is to be listened to. Keep what he has said in mind the next time you wonder why your position is so weak in negotiations. ALPA has no power to conduct an effective strike, without that "stick" you have nothing. Pay has nothing to do with speed, weight or responsibility, it only has to do with what you can get with a threat of withholding services.

The way the RJ guys, the LCC guys, and the over age 60 guys are being treated, they will all feel justified in running over you and any union in their path.

"A house divided against itself can not stand."

Wow, that's mildly threateneing!

Strike is not the only thing a union should have. A union should be able to reign in it's own members. In a closed shop a memeber who improperly advocates a minority position, publicly negotiates, accepts remuneration outside the CBA, or (maybe) even mocks the military service of another member, could possibly be tossed from the union in which case their employment would be terminated. If UAL were a closed shop you would be on thin ice!

A lot of the resistance you have on this is warranted, AND your own fault.

 

[Flopgut]

FJ you don't have a clue! Not really surprised since you are so new to this airline business.uke:

FOX! What did he say wrong? Sounded spot on to me.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

B757driver opted out of the system so what's your stake in this issue?

Reply to b757driver who is now a b747driver.

You opted out of the US system. What does this issue have to do with your career? You have the ability to work past 60. Good. Continue to do so.

But as far as the US system goes, I like it just the way it is.

Foreign carriers are not as safe as US part 121 carriers. Foreign carriers don't operate according to US standards. I know this for a fact because I have a best friend who is doing what you do. I know foreign carriers do not even have the slightest concept of CRM. Foreign carriers run their cockpits from scripts, memorizing long diatribes of verbiage that interferes with the safety of the situation. Foreign carriers spend five months typing a B747 pilot that is done more effectively and safer in five weeks in the US.

I remember meeting a pilot who had flown at Korean Airlines. He had a few years experience flying big equipment right out of flying small stuff. I also remember him telling me that since it was not Part 121 time, it did not even apply towards the last requirements he needed for his ATP and as a result did not meet minimums for any of the US carriers he wanted to work at during the late 1990's after returning to the states.

US safety standards are the "GOLD STANDARD" by which the rest of the world follows. Why anyone thinks ICAO standards are better is nuts.

ICAO is simply the UN's policies towards aviation. And who here thinks the United Nations has any creditability?

 

[FoxHunter]

Reply to b757driver who is now a b747driver.

You opted out of the US system. What does this issue have to do with your career? You have the ability to work past 60. Good. Continue to do so.

But as far as the US system goes, I like it just the way it is.

Foreign carriers are not as safe as US part 121 carriers. Foreign carriers don't operate according to US standards. I know this for a fact because I have a best friend who is doing what you do. I know foreign carriers do not even have the slightest concept of CRM. Foreign carriers run their cockpits from scripts, memorizing long diatribes of verbiage that interferes with the safety of the situation. Foreign carriers spend five months typing a B747 pilot that is done more effectively and safer in five weeks in the US.

I remember meeting a pilot who had flown at Korean Airlines. He had a few years experience flying big equipment right out of flying small stuff. I also remember him telling me that since it was not Part 121 time, it did not even apply towards the last requirements he needed for his ATP and as a result did not meet minimums for any of the US carriers he wanted to work at during the late 1990's after returning to the states.

US safety standards are the "GOLD STANDARD" by which the rest of the world follows. Why anyone thinks that because ICAO standards do it a certain way we should follow is nuts.

ICAO is simply the UN's policies towards aviation. And who here thinks the United Nations has any creditability?

You're kidding, right? US Part 121 airlines have a terrible safety record compared compared to many foreign airlines. Just look at QANTAS or Cathay Pacific. You think the US has the "GOLD STANDARD" for the rest of the world. Just look at the flight and duty time regulations under FAR 121 and compare them to the rest of the world. No, the rest of the world looks down upon the FAA ATP certificate. They claim it comes in a cereal box. I recall reading about one US airline that had three altitude busts in one week departing one European airport because they had failed to reset their altimeter at the proper time. The rest of the world is impressed(NOT) as the Yanks yap away about non operational matters as they cross the Atlantic. The FAA is still trying to figure out how to stop runway incursions. I wonder how many they ever have at Heathrow/Gatwick/Hong Kong/ Singapore or any other airport that has the lighting system developed by the Brits. I recall seeing that lighting system my first flight into Heathrow in September 1969.

No the US has fallen far behind the rest of the world in many areas of the aviation business.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

No the US has fallen far behind the rest of the world in many areas of the aviation business.

US aviation is behind? Your agenda has blinded you!

The US is responsible for Boeing and all its developments that the FAA supports, GPS, ground movement radar, ADS-B, advanced EFIS displays, NASA's developments,

 

[Falconjet]

Dudes: You need to quit quoting DooucheHunter. I have him on ignore because he keeps calling me a scab for disagreeing with him, so every time you quote him I have to read his drivel. I ought to put UF on that list too.

Since it is out there in the quotes DooucheHunter I will say this to your assertion: if our the US is so far behind the rest of the world in many areas of the aviation business shouldn't you go ahead and retire now so the young guys can figure out how to catch us up since you old farts haven't been able to? Makes about as much sense as anything else you write.

FJ

 

[Flopgut]

Having read the many rants and raves about this issue on this thread, one thing is becoming very clear to me and that is this is not about safety, it's not about taking seats and career progression (whatever that may mean in today's day and age with so many bankrupt airlines) but about personal gain. Whether you are for or against the 60 rule, you are either for it or against it for one reason and that is personal gain. To say otherwise is a total crock.

For those that say you knew what you were getting when signed on and got a DOH is VERY presumptious and you are of course assuming that EVERYONE got to a major carrier status, has never been furloughed or laid off and has, at best, been with one, maybe two carriers his/her whole career!

There must be hundreds, if not thousands of American pilots who have had NO career progression, a previous DOH is no longer relevant because that company does not exist any more, and may have been unemployed for many months with NO benefits or support because your former company had NO union (what a concept and yes, it probably would have made NO difference anyway!). Further still, there are likely many pilots that have been forced to work overseas and are looking in on this debate from the outside. Career progression? Is that something touted in the 70s or 80s? You are lucky if you have a career to start with. Thousands did not get that opportunity and are on their 5th or 6th or more airline, each time starting from the bottom of that sacred seniority ladder, only to have the rug pulled from under them. What about those folks? What rights do they have? Do they even have a future in this crazy industry?

So, in conclusion, you have not even BEGUN to touch the various individual circumstances out there that a pilot might have gone through the past two or three decades. Since you do not know, how can you begin to understand? You cannot possibly becuase you make assumptions about career progression, DOH, yadda yadda. But it's a different world out there now. There are NO guarantees you will hold a job for even 3 or 5 years, let alone a whole career so how can you apply outdated rules to something that vanished a long time ago.

It is human nature to fight for what's best whether it be food on the table, retirement fund, college education for the kids or whatever. Some folks have had the right breaks and good luck to them. But a lot have not had any breaks and have fought just as hard to get where they are today - most likely harder. Do these folks not deserve a chance to improve their lives? I'm not talking of the yachts and ex-wives. That is usually the preserve of the lucky few who have not gone through any or much adversity.

Personally, I believe in the right to continue working for as long as you are able and want to. To have that right denied because of an outdated 40-year law, is extremely short-sighted. If you want to retire at 60 or even 55, then go ahead, no one is stopping you. But if you dictate when a person should
retire, because you want to benefit your career, then that's totally out of order. No other industry or profession has such restricted practices as ours. Everybody deserves to have a job, that is a basic human right. I would not presume to tell anyone that they should just pack up and go home merely because they have reached a certain age (not even Undaunted Flyer! . And certainly not, so that I would benefit from it by a seat change and extra cash to boot. The younger folks have time on their hands and patience IS a VIRTUE. I, more than most, can vouch for that!

When I came into this industry, I had zero expectations no matter what I read or was told. I was grateful for a job I loved and if it did not last I would move on. Because of the way the system is set up, I lost out plenty. I did not take anyone's seat or career aspirations but I sure learnt fast that you look after numero uno because no one else is going to toot for you.

I will never be a Captain with any American airline or company, not by choice but through lack of opportunity. I have come to terms with that but it really gets my goat when I see people mentioning DOH, seniority and all that other crap! Nobody promised you a golden parachute when you signed on - or did they?

It is very ironic that as an American citizen and airman, I have been forced out of what I love to do and can now only do it overseas. And NO, I am not about to turn 60, just there are far better opportunities elsewhere where you are respected as a professional pilot and career progression actually means that. Outside of America, there is NO Chap. 11 bankruptcy protection, nor automatic slashing and burning of payscales and benefits. The US may have once had the best airlines and payscales etc. but that is sadly no longer the case anymore. Case in point, for me to come back next month, I would have to take a 50% IMMEDIATE drop in salary and go back on some ageing DC-9 with a third-level operator in a place I have no real interest in and start over again..........no thanks! Been there, done that far too many times...

Enjoy your careers..............while you can and remember you too, will be 60 someday. Hope your luck holds out until then.

Good post. I feel that pilots can deal better with mgts whims, geopolitical threats, and stuff like that better than they deal with their union brothers plunging a knife in them. Ask an original FAL pilot what they think about UAL ALPA, Lorenzo has nothing on them!

Do you work in a rostering and assignments arrangement?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

You're kidding, right? US Part 121 airlines have a terrible safety record compared compared to many foreign airlines.

Yea how did I forget the Korean Air B747 crashing into Nimitz Hill on Guam. That accident killed all on board because the crew couldn't understand the ATIS about the GS being INOP.

You think the US has the "GOLD STANDARD" for the rest of the world. Just look at the flight and duty time regulations under FAR 121 and compare them to the rest of the world.

Yea, I also forgot about all the commuters who don't want to change the flight and duty time regs. because they are all about slamming 30 hours of flying into a three day to keep the trip as productive as possible so they do their three leg commute with the four hour drive.

I recall reading about one US airline that had three altitude busts in one week departing one European airport because they had failed to reset their altimeter at the proper time.

Yea like you have changed to QFE at every screw ball transition level every time you've departed a foreign airport.

The rest of the world is impressed(NOT) as the Yanks yap away about non operational matters as they cross the Atlantic.

Yea and like anyone wants to hear that crap. I especially like it when the French start babbling and I am forced to step on them to shut them up.

The FAA is still trying to figure out how to stop runway incursions.

But at least the FAA doesn't clear aircraft to LINE UP AND WAIT AFTER THE LANDING TRAFFIC. That has to be one of the most dangerous ICAO procedures I could think of. And I seem to clearly remember the Singapore 747 accident that took off from a closed runway in TPE hitting the crane.

I wonder how many they ever have at Heathrow/Gatwick/Hong Kong/ Singapore or any other airport that has the lighting system developed by the Brits. I recall seeing that lighting system my first flight into Heathrow in September 1969.

Who cares about an airport lighting system. You are showing your out-of-date age referring to yesterdays technology. The aircraft I fly can land zero/zero and only needs 300 RVR to cross the FAF. We don't look out the window till we are trying to clear the runway at taxi speed. Have you heard of the ALERT HEIGHT?

Your statements about the US falling behind is crap. The US has lead the world in every technological advance ever made in aviation or space. And with each of those developments has come the highest world standard of regulation in existence today in every aspect to back up that hardware.

 

[Phaedrus]

Yea like you have changed to QFE at every screw ball transition level every time you've departed a foreign airport.

No offense Lucky, but you don't change to QFE departing a foreign airport. You change to QFE (where those operations are still in place) when arriving and cleared below the lowest transition level/transition layer.
I understand your contention however. I personally have never missed an altimeter changeover...