Age 60 informal poll

[luckytohaveajob]

Referring to above story about Braniff

The above post about 1983-1985 ALPA issue has nothing to do with age 60.

SWAPA and JBLU are the driving forces behind a change. And the people who are going to be punished by a change are the young SWA/JBLU pilots. These young pilots sought employment with SWA/JBLU with the mindset of them being growth airlines. Now if that growth does not produces the captain seat as expected, the disaffected are going to be the majority of those denied by a windfall change that violated the entire system.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

You don't get it UF

But it's OK for you if you're 59 when the rule changes, right?

It is not ok for anyone to benefit in a windfall by an overnight change from 60 to 65.

If any change were to occur it has to be over a long period of time preventing one particular group from unfairly benefiting.

That is the problem with the change that is currently being proposed. It is a total scam making the change overnight by five years.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Bob Lavender is a person of the highest of character. He resigned from ALPA because no one there has the slightest foresight. What Bob writes is to be listened to. Keep what he has said in mind the next time you wonder why your position is so weak in negotiations. ALPA has no power to conduct an effective strike, without that "stick" you have nothing. Pay has nothing to do with speed, weight or responsibility, it only has to do with what you can get with a threat of withholding services.

The way the RJ guys, the LCC guys, and the over age 60 guys are being treated, they will all feel justified in running over you and any union in their path.

"A house divided against itself can not stand."

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

It is not ok for anyone to benefit in a windfall by an overnight change from 60 to 65.

If any change were to occur it has to be over a long period of time preventing one particular group from unfairly benefiting.

That is the problem with the change that is currently being proposed. It is a total scam making the change overnight by five years.

Your post make no sense. If they make the age 61 and everything is OK, then it will be 62 and so on to 65. So what is the difference if they just go to 65 right off. It's the same thing.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

What are you talking about?!

Your post make no sense. If they make the age 61 and everything is OK, then it will be 62 and so on to 65. So what is the difference if they just go to 65 right off. It's the same thing.

My point was perfectly clear. Changing the age from 60 to 65 overnight is a windfall.

Changing the age limit in a manner that increases the upper limit five years after 30 years does not create a windfall.

If a change was needed which it is not it should take 30 years to occur or be applied to any new ATP issued after the change.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

"A house divided against itself can not stand."

The majority do not want a change. That is called a democracy. Your minority opinion is against the system that you benefited from and now selfishly want to change.

 

[Falconjet]

Bob Lavender is a person of the highest of character. He resigned from ALPA because no one there has the slightest foresight. What Bob writes is to be listened to. Keep what he has said in mind the next time you wonder why your position is so weak in negotiations. ALPA has no power to conduct an effective strike, without that "stick" you have nothing. Pay has nothing to do with speed, weight or responsibility, it only has to do with what you can get with a threat of withholding services.

The way the RJ guys, the LCC guys, and the over age 60 guys are being treated, they will all feel justified in running over you and any union in their path.

"A house divided against itself can not stand."

Wow, there is a surprise. Now you and Bob the burning bush are trying to extort support for your selfishness. Rationalize it all you can, but it still comes down to you two are only worried about one thing, and that is yourselves. Bob can't comprehend, evidently, that ALPA is united in its opposition to the Age 60 change, and it appears that neither can you.

Bob is so off his rocker that he is trying to rationalize his point of view by comparing his opinion on Age 60 (he feels he has been abandoned by ALPA) with the SCABS at CAL. Talk about shooting himself in the foot. I know he stood the line and I have given him thanks and credit for that before, but that doesn't mean he gets a free pass for the rest of his life. He needs to do the right thing now, but he instead has decided to quit because the MAJORITY of ALPA members don't agree with him. He is saying the SCABS felt abandoned by ALPA so they were justified in striking to feed their families.

What a crock, especially from someone who stood the line while they went to work. He has obviously lost his mind. Now he is trying to say that if the MAJORITY of ALPA pilots don't support the over 60 crowd they will cross any picket line down the road and will be justified in doing so. I don't know how you can paint any more selfish a picture of yourself than that. And you, UF are in complete agreement apparently with that argument. Once again you and Bob have stooped so low as to barely be worth even responding to.

ALPA doesn't need the support of self-centered egotistical maniacs like you and Bob. I am confident that Bob would no longer honor a picket line at FedEx or anywhere else, so his threat carries little weight. He quit the union, he no longer has a voice, so he keeps writing his little tales to himself and anyone else stupid enough to take the time to read them.

Too bad you guys can't for a moment take a step back and consider for one moment the point of view of anyone besides yourself. You do yourselves no favors by threatening the MAJORITY of the pilots that you will cross a picket line down the road because you feel you have been sold out. You make yourselves look like the selfish, major tools that you are.

FJ

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Video of Undauntedflyer as found on APC.com

You guys are dangerous!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8MkOPCGYizQ

 

[b757driver]

Having read the many rants and raves about this issue on this thread, one thing is becoming very clear to me and that is this is not about safety, it's not about taking seats and career progression (whatever that may mean in today's day and age with so many bankrupt airlines) but about personal gain. Whether you are for or against the 60 rule, you are either for it or against it for one reason and that is personal gain. To say otherwise is a total crock.

For those that say you knew what you were getting when signed on and got a DOH is VERY presumptious and you are of course assuming that EVERYONE got to a major carrier status, has never been furloughed or laid off and has, at best, been with one, maybe two carriers his/her whole career!

There must be hundreds, if not thousands of American pilots who have had NO career progression, a previous DOH is no longer relevant because that company does not exist any more, and may have been unemployed for many months with NO benefits or support because your former company had NO union (what a concept and yes, it probably would have made NO difference anyway!). Further still, there are likely many pilots that have been forced to work overseas and are looking in on this debate from the outside. Career progression? Is that something touted in the 70s or 80s? You are lucky if you have a career to start with. Thousands did not get that opportunity and are on their 5th or 6th or more airline, each time starting from the bottom of that sacred seniority ladder, only to have the rug pulled from under them. What about those folks? What rights do they have? Do they even have a future in this crazy industry?

So, in conclusion, you have not even BEGUN to touch the various individual circumstances out there that a pilot might have gone through the past two or three decades. Since you do not know, how can you begin to understand? You cannot possibly becuase you make assumptions about career progression, DOH, yadda yadda. But it's a different world out there now. There are NO guarantees you will hold a job for even 3 or 5 years, let alone a whole career so how can you apply outdated rules to something that vanished a long time ago.

It is human nature to fight for what's best whether it be food on the table, retirement fund, college education for the kids or whatever. Some folks have had the right breaks and good luck to them. But a lot have not had any breaks and have fought just as hard to get where they are today - most likely harder. Do these folks not deserve a chance to improve their lives? I'm not talking of the yachts and ex-wives. That is usually the preserve of the lucky few who have not gone through any or much adversity.

Personally, I believe in the right to continue working for as long as you are able and want to. To have that right denied because of an outdated 40-year law, is extremely short-sighted. If you want to retire at 60 or even 55, then go ahead, no one is stopping you. But if you dictate when a person should
retire, because you want to benefit your career, then that's totally out of order. No other industry or profession has such restricted practices as ours. Everybody deserves to have a job, that is a basic human right. I would not presume to tell anyone that they should just pack up and go home merely because they have reached a certain age (not even Undaunted Flyer! . And certainly not, so that I would benefit from it by a seat change and extra cash to boot. The younger folks have time on their hands and patience IS a VIRTUE. I, more than most, can vouch for that!

When I came into this industry, I had zero expectations no matter what I read or was told. I was grateful for a job I loved and if it did not last I would move on. Because of the way the system is set up, I lost out plenty. I did not take anyone's seat or career aspirations but I sure learnt fast that you look after numero uno because no one else is going to toot for you.

I will never be a Captain with any American airline or company, not by choice but through lack of opportunity. I have come to terms with that but it really gets my goat when I see people mentioning DOH, seniority and all that other crap! Nobody promised you a golden parachute when you signed on - or did they?

It is very ironic that as an American citizen and airman, I have been forced out of what I love to do and can now only do it overseas. And NO, I am not about to turn 60, just there are far better opportunities elsewhere where you are respected as a professional pilot and career progression actually means that. Outside of America, there is NO Chap. 11 bankruptcy protection, nor automatic slashing and burning of payscales and benefits. The US may have once had the best airlines and payscales etc. but that is sadly no longer the case anymore. Case in point, for me to come back next month, I would have to take a 50% IMMEDIATE drop in salary and go back on some ageing DC-9 with a third-level operator in a place I have no real interest in and start over again..........no thanks! Been there, done that far too many times...

Enjoy your careers..............while you can and remember you too, will be 60 someday. Hope your luck holds out until then.

 

[FoxHunter]

Wow, there is a surprise. Now you and Bob the burning bush are trying to extort support for your selfishness. Rationalize it all you can, but it still comes down to you two are only worried about one thing, and that is yourselves. Bob can't comprehend, evidently, that ALPA is united in its opposition to the Age 60 change, and it appears that neither can you.

Bob is so off his rocker that he is trying to rationalize his point of view by comparing his opinion on Age 60 (he feels he has been abandoned by ALPA) with the SCABS at CAL. Talk about shooting himself in the foot. I know he stood the line and I have given him thanks and credit for that before, but that doesn't mean he gets a free pass for the rest of his life. He needs to do the right thing now, but he instead has decided to quit because the MAJORITY of ALPA members don't agree with him. He is saying the SCABS felt abandoned by ALPA so they were justified in striking to feed their families.

What a crock, especially from someone who stood the line while they went to work. He has obviously lost his mind. Now he is trying to say that if the MAJORITY of ALPA pilots don't support the over 60 crowd they will cross any picket line down the road and will be justified in doing so. I don't know how you can paint any more selfish a picture of yourself than that. And you, UF are in complete agreement apparently with that argument. Once again you and Bob have stooped so low as to barely be worth even responding to.

ALPA doesn't need the support of self-centered egotistical maniacs like you and Bob. I am confident that Bob would no longer honor a picket line at FedEx or anywhere else, so his threat carries little weight. He quit the union, he no longer has a voice, so he keeps writing his little tales to himself and anyone else stupid enough to take the time to read them.

Too bad you guys can't for a moment take a step back and consider for one moment the point of view of anyone besides yourself. You do yourselves no favors by threatening the MAJORITY of the pilots that you will cross a picket line down the road because you feel you have been sold out. You make yourselves look like the selfish, major tools that you are.

FJ

FJ you don't have a clue! Not really surprised since you are so new to this airline business.uke: