Age 60/65 Compromise

[Andy]

Someone should start a website. Get the Pro 60 crowd as organized as much as the Pro Change crowd is.

Oh man, you're giving me ideas. I live in the DC area.

By the way, you should've left the PAC comment in there. Like it or not, PAC money helps to gain access in Washington.
Here's a list of who ALPA gave money to: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.asp?strID=C00035451&Cycle=2006

Unfortunately, ALPA has been a bit schizophrenic when it comes to the age 60 issue.

 

[General Lee]

Who is the greedy one? Just ask the majority of the public who are used to waiting their turn in life's real world. Where is the real greed in the age 60 rule debate?

From a disinterested point of view, a reasonable person would view the junior pilot coveting what does not belong to him as the greedy one. Possession is nine tenths of the law. Promotions should not be gained at the expense of others.

The reasonable man on the street could only conclude that the FAA's current age 60 rule is just plain wrong. That conclusion is obvious because there is the overwhelming evidence that a person’s age is not the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot, that physical and mental decline cannot be measured by age alone, that we have all observed that some people decline in their physical and mental abilities faster that others but the experience factor has to be considered. Everyone since the Wright Brothers has observed that the more experienced pilot is likely to be the safer pilot. Though highly experienced pilots may suffer some varying amount decline in physical abilities as they age, their experience could more than compensate for any slight physical decline in performance.

The reasonable man on the street will see the junior pilot's exaggerated claim that all pilots over age 60 are unsafe as merely a smoke screen, that their real motive is institutionalized age discrimination and an accelerated job advancement scheme for junior pilots.

You knew the rules going into this Klako, and you never stood up and said to all of the captains senior to you "Hey George, you still ROCK as a pilot, please stick around and not allow me to bid better trips or vacation for another 5 years." You never did it, and you will have to abide by the same RULE. Sorry. If you have forgotten about that "rule", then you are already becoming senile and you need to give up flying for all of our sakes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Deerkiller]

Who is the greedy one? Just ask the majority of the public who are used to waiting their turn in life's real world. Where is the real greed in the age 60 rule debate?

From a disinterested point of view, a reasonable person would view the junior pilot coveting what does not belong to him as the greedy one. Possession is nine tenths of the law. Promotions should not be gained at the expense of others.

The reasonable man on the street could only conclude that the FAA's current age 60 rule is just plain wrong. That conclusion is obvious because there is the overwhelming evidence that a person’s age is not the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot, that physical and mental decline cannot be measured by age alone, that we have all observed that some people decline in their physical and mental abilities faster that others but the experience factor has to be considered. Everyone since the Wright Brothers has observed that the more experienced pilot is likely to be the safer pilot. Though highly experienced pilots may suffer some varying amount decline in physical abilities as they age, their experience could more than compensate for any slight physical decline in performance.

The reasonable man on the street will see the junior pilot's exaggerated claim that all pilots over age 60 are unsafe as merely a smoke screen, that their real motive is institutionalized age discrimination and an accelerated job advancement scheme for junior pilots.

As i said in my previous post, I have yet to hear a good argument for the age change. I've read the pro-change letters that have been posted on various websites and I'm unimpressed.

Do you really think that if you truly explained the situation to a non aviation person they would see it your way, that the "junior pilot coveting what what does not belong" is the greedy one? You believe that if you tell them that this has been the rule for 40+ years, everyone who gets into aviation knows the rule, that the majority of pilots are FOR keeping the rule, and the vocal majority of those AGAINST the rule are those like you who count their airline time in days and months, not years. After explaining all this you think the junior pilots would be the ones viewed as greedy?

C'mon Klako you're gonna have to come a little stronger than that. I dont want to hear about the "junior pilot's safety smoke screen." Tell me why i should be for this change.

 

[zonker]

Oh man, you're giving me ideas. I live in the DC area.

By the way, you should've left the PAC comment in there. Like it or not, PAC money helps to gain access in Washington.
Here's a list of who ALPA gave money to: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.asp?strID=C00035451&Cycle=2006

Unfortunately, ALPA has been a bit schizophrenic when it comes to the age 60 issue.

Yea, I didn't want to seem as though I agreed with that sort of legalized bribery, as I think there should be reform...but it is what it is, it's the way of Washington more than ever. Hopefully "K-Street" gets taken down a peg in the coming years with the Abramoff scandal, etc.

Anyway, if you expand on those ideas, let me know: I'll contribute time, money or both. You've got a lot of knowledge on the subject, put it to good use!

 

[Klako]

Do you really think that if you truly explained the situation to a non aviation person they would see it your way, that the "junior pilot coveting what what does not belong" is the greedy one? You believe that if you tell them that this has been the rule for 40+ years, everyone who gets into aviation knows the rule, that the majority of pilots are FOR keeping the rule, and the vocal majority of those AGAINST the rule are those like you who count their airline time in days and months, not years. After explaining all this you think the junior pilots would be the ones viewed as greedy?

YES! I have asked that question many times, testing my own motivations. Try it yourself, ask the general public the question, give them the facts. They will all say that junior pilots are simply greedy.

Why should you want the age 60 rule to change now, because you should reserve now your choice in the future to fly past age 60. It is likely you will at least want that choice when your time comes. The sacrifices that you fear now have been over-stated by the nay sayers.

 

[General Lee]

YES! I have asked that question many times, testing my own motivations. Try it yourself, ask the general public the question, give them the facts. They will all say that junior pilots are simply greedy.

Why should you want the age 60 rule to change now, because you should reserve now your choice in the future to fly past age 60. It is likely you will at least want that choice when your time comes. The sacrifices that you fear now have been over-stated by the nay sayers.

Does the general public want old cops and firemen too? They have to retire at 55. Ask them if they want old pilots....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Klako]

Does the general public want old cops and firemen too? They have to retire at 55. Ask them if they want old pilots....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Cops and firemen have very physically demanding jobs. Airline pilots on the other hand are in the same group as, say, doctors, lawyers, politicians who’s jobs are not physically but intellectually demanding. Therefore age alone should not be a factor.

 

[Freight Dog]

Klako, your arguments are really proving that you need to go. Junior pilots being greedy??? Man, you really have some nerve... gotta give you that!

 

[walden]

but intellectually demanding.

Dude, you're skating on thin ice there.

 

[satpak77]

Klako

so you gonna work again in retirement as an FAA Inspector? WHY? Don't you have a life, grandkids to hold, golf to play, kit planes to fly?

Or do you need to go from your airline and its structured support network and go right into another one?

is this about Age 60 or is this about deeper issues?

......?

 

[Klako]

Klako, your arguments are really proving that you need to go. Junior pilots being greedy??? Man, you really have some nerve... gotta give you that!

Not all junior pilots want to see senior pilots forced out of a profession that they enjoy and into poverty with little chance of finding other decent employment, just so the young guys can move up the seniority list faster. Senior pilots have families and kids in college, parents needing help. Most senior pilots need an additional two years to survive retirement.

More and more junior pilots are seeing the truth and can now visualize that being able to fly to age 65, if they could have the choice, is a good thing.

 

[satpak77]

still waiting on a response Klako

I see you are former military. You prob joined at age 22,23,25. Operated inside a structured organization which told you how to brush your teeth and how to hold the toothbrush. Went to the airlines, and was given your lines and schedule, and told how to do it.

Now you might retire, into.....DRUM ROLL....SCARY MUSIC.....a life of no pre-provided structure. Now you must wake up and go thru the day, on your OWN, with no one to hold your 60 year old hand.

So why not join the FAA, back to the comfort of the government. Nice and comfy and the milk is warm isn't it.

 

[two(2)%]

Cops and firemen have very physically demanding jobs. Airline pilots on the other hand are in the same group as, say, doctors, lawyers, politicians who’s jobs are not physically but intellectually demanding. Therefore age alone should not be a factor.

Politicians?? Like Bobby Byrd and Teddy Stevens?? I'm sure these two are busting out of their skulls with genius and intellectual acuity. Whenever this subject comes up with my parents "We really like to see the ole' gray hair experienced Captain in the cockpit when we board our aircraft", I tell them about the time me and the "ole gray hair" went full scale deflection at 400' LIFR and I "suggested" we execute the missed approach. I was given the controls upon reaching safe altitude and we attributed our misfortune to a "defective" FD. We can only change opinion a few unsuspecting folks at a time. This includes your legislators. I believe it's important to contact your new Reps and Senators who are, as of yet, unenlightened.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Klako, I find it VERY hard to believe that you moved up without anyone being forced out. The effect of the current Age 60 rule is global - by that I mean system wide.

By way of illustration, let me ask you this: While you were an FO, did any captains leave Horizon for other carriers? If so, then they were able to move to those other carriers as a result, to a large degree, of pilots at said carriers being forced to retire and their company having to hire new FO's. Just because the retirement did not occur at Horizon does not mean you did not benefit from it.

It's not that anyone harbors any ill will, but you have to understand the implications for those below you. Not just those below you at Horizon, but those below you who are working other jobs trying to keep their families together while they put their time in until something opens up. I have a lot of friends still flying freight. I was fortunate to get out of that after 2 1/2 years of flying six days a week, i.e. of not seeing my wife or kids awake for six days a week (they were asleep when I got home and asleep when I left). The Age 60 rule was working for me even though I was at a 135 carrier hauling boxes.

I do hope things work out for you. I don't know what I'm going to do once I turn 60 either, but I'm looking at many options NOW, even though I have about 15 years to go to 60. Everyone in this business, regardless of age, needs to have a Plan B. JMHO

 

[NoJoy]

I believe there is a turm for those pilots who wanted to go back and sit "sideways" after turing 60. Herpes. It wasn't about the $ though, they just loved to fly-

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Whenever this subject comes up with my parents "We really like to see the ole' gray hair experienced Captain in the cockpit when we board our aircraft", I tell them about the time me and the "ole gray hair" went full scale deflection at 400' LIFR and I "suggested" we execute the missed approach. I was given the controls upon reaching safe altitude and we attributed our misfortune to a "defective" FD.

Was that every older guy you flew with or just this one? Why wasn't the Auto pilot used on that approach knowing it was LIFR? And what did you do about this guy? Did you tell your CP about this him?....or go to Professional Standards?

Tejas

 

[jbDC9]

Klako, I find it VERY hard to believe that you moved up without anyone being forced out. The effect of the current Age 60 rule is global - by that I mean system wide.

By way of illustration, let me ask you this: While you were an FO, did any captains leave Horizon for other carriers? If so, then they were able to move to those other carriers as a result, to a large degree, of pilots at said carriers being forced to retire and their company having to hire new FO's. Just because the retirement did not occur at Horizon does not mean you did not benefit from it.

Yep, this guy gets it. A very good example... but, you could've saved your fingers on typing that post; Klako is a complete moron and doesn't want to hear any logical or well thought out explanations on how the senior guys have actually benefitted from the Age 60 rule. The only thing Klako can see is his own little world and his own little agenda.

So, Klako will read your post but totally disregard it. Then he'll continue his tired and silly rants... "It's the junior greedy guys that wanna move up!! Dang you dirty greedy little punks!" Or something to that effect.

BTW, where's UndauntedFlyer in this thread? I'm surprised he's not here to back up Klako's drivel.

 

[The Prussian]

Whenever this subject comes up with my parents "We really like to see the ole' gray hair experienced Captain in the cockpit when we board our aircraft", I tell them about the time me and the "ole gray hair" went full scale deflection at 400' LIFR and I "suggested" we execute the missed approach. I was given the controls upon reaching safe altitude and we attributed our misfortune to a "defective" FD.

I'm impressed. Mom and Dad should be very proud of you.

 

[Deerkiller]

Not all junior pilots want to see senior pilots forced out of a profession that they enjoy and into poverty with little chance of finding other decent employment, just so the young guys can move up the seniority list faster. Senior pilots have families and kids in college, parents needing help. Most senior pilots need an additional two years to survive retirement.

More and more junior pilots are seeing the truth and can now visualize that being able to fly to age 65, if they could have the choice, is a good thing.

So this is about money. And you call the junior guys greedy. I'm not going to attempt to assume what debt load you have. But i will say that you knew 60 was coming, I know 60 is coming, everyone who puts on a uniform knows 60 is coming, PLAN. Did your pension get cut in half at Horizon, did you ever even have a pension? I fly with guys everyday who, with three years left, had the retirement they were planning on cut in half. Yet, i dont hear them whining about having to retire. I ask them. I ask everyone i fly with.

I dont get the moving up the seniority list fast statement. It's not faster, it's the way it is. It's the way it has always been. Despite your efforts it hasn't changed. It's not like they just changed the rule to 60 forcing you out early.

Like i've said before I plan on getting out early. I'm going to situate myself so I can go out on my terms. If I go to 60 fine if not....better.

dk

 

[Deerkiller]

Cops and firemen have very physically demanding jobs. Airline pilots on the other hand are in the same group as, say, doctors, lawyers, politicians who’s jobs are not physically but intellectually demanding. Therefore age alone should not be a factor.

This was your response to Gen. Lee saying that Policemen and Fire Fighters have to retire at 55.

Do cops and firemen not have kids in school, parents to take care of, healthcare to buy? Physically demanding or not they have the financial responsibilities that you and me have.