AF, Navy Fighter ?

[BiffF15]

"I simply offer my experiences as a counterpoint to the constant air force mantra of "we are tactically better than the navy because of all their boat stuff". What use is all the training when if you never make it to the game."

"I have deployed to Key West / Sloppy Joe's more times than I can remember, fought every version of the mighty Tomcat and Hornet. I have fought some great dudes and without fail those that were spinning up for, were on, or have just left the boat wereI have fought some great dudes and without fail those that were spinning up for, were on, or have just left the boat were not proficient and it showed. and it showed."

Exactly my point. I'm talking about who was there at the start of the invasion. You're talking about training and staff tours. In afghanistan 3/4 of the ordnance was dropped by air force big wing bombers. The remaining 1/4 was dropped by navy tacair.

"Huggy - bro you have one heck of an ego but hey I expect that of a "hornet driver" (attribute to a classmate o' mine) I hope that you're an 0-3 (any higher and I'll assume you have absolutly ZERO joint time) and have no idea how DOD really works, also just wondering if you're a ring knocker 'cause you have the air of being a bit of a tool. On the bright side yes the navy did it all! As always AF was just a support role role providing the fuel and a couple of big guys with firepower equal to your entire CBG. with the 73 type you rushing swa, if so good luck."

A typical flight info class act you are. Attack the poster instead of his ideas.

HuggyBear,
Well, let me ask you a couple of questions. Who do you think is better at a particular mission, the guy who does it all the time, or the guy who does it for a couple of weeks every couple of months (SEAD, Interdiction, CAS, DCA, OCA, etc)?
What was going on in the world that the USAF TAC AIR wasn't in Afghanistan?
Biff

 

[Bjammin]

HuggyBear,
Well, let me ask you a couple of questions. Who do you think is better at a particular mission, the guy who does it all the time, or the guy who does it for a couple of weeks every couple of months (SEAD, Interdiction, CAS, DCA, OCA, etc)?
What was going on in the world that the USAF TAC AIR wasn't in Afghanistan?
Biff

What are you talking about dude?

I played in GW1 and was in PSAB and Incirlic for alot longer then any AF guy I know, 3+ tours, and not the 3 month kind.

I have done 9 Red Flags, 3 Green flags, and 3 Navy "Big" X's and was a SEAD commander for numorous missions. We played with the AF all the time and they sucked or were as good as any Navy Fighter squadron.

The only thing I saw that was different was the philosophy of flying, as mentioned earlier.

You want to play hard ball?

BRING IT ON!!!!

 

[Bjammin]

Training for the boat takes about 3 weeks out of your life in the training command, 2 weeks in the RAG and maybe 3 weeks every year out of your fleet squadron.

That is not enough to cause any loss of preformance in the TAC arena overall.

Sure coming right back from the boat guys might be rusty, 2 fights and your back in the game. I would say the flexibility and overall skill gained at the boat cancels out any negitive effects.

Let's hang this up guys,shake hands and go to our seperate corners.

Put the macho ego's aside and realize WE ARE ON THE SAME TEAM!

It's great to be proud of your particalluar service, but don't trash others to try make you feel more significant. Carriers nor heavy bombers are going anywhere anytime soon and when they do i'm sure your give a s-- index will be way low.

 

[Hobit]

"Put the macho ego's aside and realize WE ARE ON THE SAME TEAM!"

BJammin,

I have no part of the little hair pulling going on here but what you wrote struck a chord and is the exact realization I came to when I deployed as an Apache pilot. After spending time with blackhawks and chinooks in what you folks call the 'threat bubble' on a non-linear, non-contiguous battle field you tend to realize the synergistic effects of your (plural) abilities. Sure we all got to the fight with prejudices but that all was replaced in about one mission together. All was not peaches but we quickly became to respect the he!! out of each other. At the end of the 'vacation' most were really sad to see a good team of misfits broken apart.

Now when I hear a Kiowa Warrior (OH-58D) or Apache pilot bag on Blackhawks or vice versa I realize I am hearing some one talk that has no hard data to justify his/her ignorance.

 

[BiffF15]

What are you talking about dude?

I played in GW1 and was in PSAB and Incirlic for alot longer then any AF guy I know, 3+ tours, and not the 3 month kind.

I have done 9 Red Flags, 3 Green flags, and 3 Navy "Big" X's and was a SEAD commander for numorous missions. We played with the AF all the time and they sucked or were as good as any Navy Fighter squadron.

The only thing I saw that was different was the philosophy of flying, as mentioned earlier.

You want to play hard ball?

BRING IT ON!!!!

Bjam,
You are hilarious. Come out swinging without looking back at what started this little foray, then you cloak yourself in a white sheet and make like a peace negotiator.
Whatever.
Re-read the trash Huggybear likes to sling and you will understand. Or maybe you did and that is why the change...
However, you added nothing that I could tell. Yes, you have done quite a few large exercises, but correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I direct that question to Huggybear to establish his credentials? Next, why was the USN the only TAC AIR show there during the time frame HB was there? I just asked a couple of questions and you roll in to protect either your branch or HB (not sure which ? my point being directed HB ONLY).
Also, if a plane does more than one mission it's a compromise in performance and or capability. And if a dude or dudette does more than one mission do you think they are as good as their counter parts who do only one of the missions? I think not. How about if they do CAS, interdiction, DCA, OCA, SEAD and Sniper / Lantern.
Wow, they are probably better than the one or two mission planes / crews.
Okay, NOT.
Next time you roll in add something to the fight, a reason, defense, excuse or a different point vice being a high speed cheerleader (passes through in a blur but contributes nothing).
Biff on 243.0 out.

 

[Bjammin]

Without changing my plea that we just kick back and have a few, I will say that I was directing my statements at your generalities about the services.

I think if we keep the bashing out of it (that contributes nothing) we can have a decent, friendly discussion about some of these topics.

Huggy Bear can take care of himself, plus I have no dog in the Afgan arugment.

As far as multi-mission, sometimes I think diversity can make you an overall better aviator. You can be great at motor sports and still be a top notch snow skier, and maybe at the same time be good at making furnature. Same with doing multi-mission flying. No missions are so complex that you have to only train to one.

I teach about 9 different phases of tac-air and feel I have a good grasp on all of them, all while flying for the airlines. If i'm out of a phase for a while I will take the extra time and study up so i'm doing the best job for the students. You need to make a effort and not be lazy when doing this kind of diverse flying and I think this is where guys fail. They would rather be in the club throwing down some j-weed or grog then studying up for a mission they haven't done in a while, relying on their ego to get them through.

 

[Scrapdog]

That is not enough to cause any loss of preformance in the TAC arena overall.

Sure coming right back from the boat guys might be rusty, 2 fights and your back in the game.

1. There isn't a loss of performance in the TAC arena overall because they never had any performance in that arena in the first place.

2. Two fights of what? The standard Navy 1 v 1 intx? Or wait - maybe the push it up 2 v 2... GMAFB!

Bj (or B J, whichever the case may be), you crack me up dude. You can sling feces with the best of 'em but when the zingers come right back...it's funny how quick you bring out the white flag. Reap what you sow my friend.

You and huggybear hang out at the bar much together??

 

[Bjammin]

1. There isn't a loss of performance in the TAC arena overall because they never had any performance in that arena in the first place.

2. Two fights of what? The standard Navy 1 v 1 intx? Or wait - maybe the push it up 2 v 2... GMAFB!

Bj (or B J, whichever the case may be), you crack me up dude. You can sling feces with the best of 'em but when the zingers come right back...it's funny how quick you bring out the white flag. Reap what you sow my friend.

You and huggybear hang out at the bar much together??

What are you talking about?

Having done both Navy Fallons and Red Flags they are both amazingly the same. Plus I've seen many X's with the ANG and of course Cope Thunder (never did that one, but my squadron did). All large force X's with the same goal.

Again, I have respect for all military aviatiors, being from a joint squadron and all. If you don't how can we work together to learn from each other? Are you the type that plays "I have a secret" in planning for a multi service excersize? That kind of crap only leads to loss of training and more in-fighting.

The services have differences, GREAT!! Let's learn the things that work for each and better our ultimate mission of TAKING IT TO THE ENEMY!!

Sure, sometimes I have a few too many beers before posting and come out swinging, this is NOT one of those times.

 

[rhinodriver]

Bj (or B J, whichever the case may be)

Scrapdog... You're a frickin' tool.

J.A.

You must be hoot on the flight deck....

 

[JimNtexas]

1. There isn't a loss of performance in the TAC arena overall because they never had any performance in that arena in the first place.

...

I've been somewhat skeptical of the F-22 for a long time.

This post doubles my worst fears about it.

 

[Spidey]

Scrapdog... You're a frickin' tool.

J.A.

You must be hoot on the flight deck....

...crappup doesn't fly any f-22's...he just rides in them and doesn't touch anything...for fear he'll screw up what he doesn't know is happening...kinda like on this thread...

 

[BiffF15]

Without changing my plea that we just kick back and have a few, I will say that I was directing my statements at your generalities about the services.

I think if we keep the bashing out of it (that contributes nothing) we can have a decent, friendly discussion about some of these topics.

Huggy Bear can take care of himself, plus I have no dog in the Afgan arugment.

As far as multi-mission, sometimes I think diversity can make you an overall better aviator. You can be great at motor sports and still be a top notch snow skier, and maybe at the same time be good at making furnature. Same with doing multi-mission flying. No missions are so complex that you have to only train to one.

I teach about 9 different phases of tac-air and feel I have a good grasp on all of them, all while flying for the airlines. If i'm out of a phase for a while I will take the extra time and study up so i'm doing the best job for the students. You need to make a effort and not be lazy when doing this kind of diverse flying and I think this is where guys fail. They would rather be in the club throwing down some j-weed or grog then studying up for a mission they haven't done in a while, relying on their ego to get them through.

Yes, doing mulitiple missions probably makes for a better aviator. What it doesn't make him better at is any ONE mission since he has to spread himself around. We do ONE mission in the aircraft I fly, and believe me I know we do it better than the multi-mission aircraft (F22 aside as it's such a technological advance). If you think a multi-mission guy can do any one mission better than a single mission guy you are sadly mistaken. The level of competency, understanding, and execution will be of another magnitude between the two.

What do you do 9 different phases of tac-air in? If it's a trainer aircraft you are comparing apples to oranges. Doing more than one type of mission in a radar equipped fighter is a LOT different than some form flying, or a low level with Joey Bag O'Donuts.

Without changing my plea that we just kick back and have a few, I will say that I was directing my statements at your generalities about the services.

You will have to explain where I made "generalities" about the other branches. I made very specific comments / questions to HB (still unanswered). I think there might be some "little man" syndrome going on here.

Exactly my point. I'm talking about who was there at the start of the invasion. You're talking about training and staff tours. In afghanistan 3/4 of the ordnance was dropped by air force big wing bombers. The remaining 1/4 was dropped by navy tacair.

HuggyBear what exactly is your point with this statement. Are you happy that USN Tac Air dropped the smallest portion of bombs, or just that they got invited to drop anything? I thought the USAF heavy bombers were doing everything from CAS (cave spelunking) to area denial while maintaining the cap for hours on end without need of tankers. Or are we talking about accuracy of a fighter compared to a bomber? Please explain.

HB and Bjamin what you both have to understand is I completely understand and agree with the reasons / needs to have integrated forces (both from with in the US as well as exterior to it). What you don't understand is I'm not bagging on the USN, USMC, or the USAF. I will say each branch trains to a different level based on what they think they will have to execute to in a war and their training plans, proficiency, and expectations are all tailored by and suited to that. No USAF squadron trains to go to the boat each year. However, they do train to be a part of a large force integration and the complexities that go with it vice what can be expected launching off the boat (only so many assets one can get into a package when they use the same moving runway). Both are results of what a squadron is training for as well as what the branch expects to do in war time.

 

[rhinodriver]

what you both have to understand is I completely understand and agree with the reasons / needs to have integrated forces (both from with in the US as well as exterior to it). What you don't understand is I'm not bagging on the USN, USMC, or the USAF. I will say each branch trains to a different level based on what they think they will have to execute to in a war and their training plans, proficiency, and expectations are all tailored by and suited to that. No USAF squadron trains to go to the boat each year. However, they do train to be a part of a large force integration and the complexities that go with it vice what can be expected launching off the boat (only so many assets one can get into a package when they use the same moving runway). Both are results of what a squadron is training for as well as what the branch expects to do in war time.

Finally a good point and the purse swinging can stop...

As you say each branch trains for what they envision will be they way they fight. This leads to differences in training and execution but in an increasingly joint world the differences are narrowing.

I would say that being a "jack of all trades" is the more challenging factor when it comes to operational readiness than "the boat". Once you are in the fleet prepairing for the boat takes less time than most of the pundants on this thread seem to think.

Obviously if you do only one mission and execute the same tactics over and over you'll have it wired. What you get with a multi-role platform (like the Hornet) is well trained crews in various missions at major cost savings over individual mission specific platforms - which would be impossible on the Navy budget. You also get a flexible force that can get to most theaters quickly and don't need basing rights. We will always rely on inorganic tanking to go deep in country.

The bottom line is each are professional in thier own ways and fulfill the mission.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Fellas.... all the girls have gone home. They will try the 9-5 office boys tomorrow....

 

[DaveGriffin]

Air Force = Airplanes
Navy = Boats


You decide!

ExAF,

AF = 2 piddle paks away from the fight
Navy = 300 nm away from the fight

The Boat makes the difference between 12 hours to engage and 45 min to engage.

Either way, the bad guys get eliminated. It just happens faster when the Navy is on the job.

You decide!

 

[Scrapdog]

ExAF,

AF = 2 piddle paks away from the fight
Navy = 300 nm away from the fight

The Boat makes the difference between 12 hours to engage and 45 min to engage.

You decide.

Is this F'in loser really posting about flying fighers - Navy or AF? Unfortunately Dave, you don't know the first thing about the military nor aviation. The irony is killing me.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Is this F'in loser really posting about flying fighers - Navy or AF? Unfortunately Dave, you don't know the first thing about the military nor aviation. The irony is killing me.

Tell me where I'm wrong, Maj. Piddle Pak.

Your typical AF thinking is what will get you guys disbanded and your mission distributed between the Navy, Marines and Army.

The AF adds little value to the fight that the other other branches don't already deliver. Your ever increasing budget bloat for aircraft, that don't contribute to the current war effort, always seem to get your congressional budget requests reduced.

It is interesting to note that the AF says its biggest battle is political, not operational. You guys are big time pussies.

 

[anotherF16pilot]

Listen up!

Tell me where I'm wrong, Maj. Piddle Pak.

Your typical AF thinking is what will get you guys disbanded and your mission distributed between the Navy, Marines and Army.

The AF adds little value to the fight that the other other branches don't already deliver. Your ever increasing budget bloat for aircraft, that don't contribute to the current war effort, always seem to get your congressional budget requests reduced.

It is interesting to note that the AF says its biggest battle is political, not operational. You guys are big time pussies.

Warriors,

We all need to realize that sometimes each services capabilities overlap but there are also times when they are unique.

As far as the overlap, most of this is in regards to putting the smack on bad guys. This is what makes our fighting force flexible.

Now, there are also things about each service that make them unique. People choose to serve in whichever branch for a myriad of reasons but regardless you're probably going to be most familiar with your own branch's capabilities. You can bang your chest and say "I'm better than you!" all day but that just means you aren't aware of what other dudes bring to the fight. Things that you might have to depend on to do your own job. I hate to admit it myself but the Air Force is more than just airplanes.

And by the way, I AM BETTER THAN YOU!!! LOL

Over.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Warriors,

We all need to realize that sometimes each services capabilities overlap but there are also times when they are unique.

As far as the overlap, most of this is in regards to putting the smack on bad guys. This is what makes our fighting force flexible.

Now, there are also things about each service that make them unique. People choose to serve in whichever branch for a myriad of reasons but regardless you're probably going to be most familiar with your own branch's capabilities. You can bang your chest and say "I'm better than you!" all day but that just means you aren't aware of what other dudes bring to the fight. Things that you might have to depend on to do your own job. I hate to admit it myself but the Air Force is more than just airplanes.

And by the way, I AM BETTER THAN YOU!!! LOL

Over.

anotherF16pilot,

Your position is typical AF BS: "Everyone is good at what they do."

The AF is a waste of budget. It wa s mistake from the beginning. AF capabilities are redundant and/or not necessary (such as the AF Broadway production "Tops in Blue.")

 

[Future SNA]

I hate to admit it myself but the Air Force is more than just airplanes.

Please elaborate....popcorn & a coke standing by.