Accelerated Flight Crew Crash in AZ

[Timebuilder]

Ultimate responsibility?

I can't help to wonder why three people who had made it to this point in their careers (commercial and instructor ratings on board) would choose to take off in a plane that an experienced examiner had just refused to use for a flight test? HELLO??????

Perhaps this is one of those "ultimate" examples of poor PIC decision making.

Let's all take a lesson from this, particularly those of you who are still working to complete your training.

A sad, sad affair.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Is larry working with the local FSDO over there? If yes, then how can he let an unairworthy airplane fly infront of him.

Larry is a DE, and not an FAA inspector. He has neither the responsibility nor the authority to ground a plane.

Wiggums, How do you know it was accelerated's plane. Nothing I could find would even say what type it was. I hope that some of the time-whores out there understand why some of us are so outsspoken against provinding instruction from the back seat. This is a sad way to learn a lesson.

 

[Wiggums]

FlyinBrian, here is the first report with the tail number...


[IDENTIFICATION]
Regis#: 4302P Make/Model: PA23 Description: PA-23-150/160 Apache
Date: 06/08/2002 Time: 2105

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Unknown

LOCATION
City: NOGALES State: AZ Country: US

DESCRIPTION
ACFT CRASHED SHORTLY AFTER TAKE-OFF INTO A RESIDENTIAL AREA 5 MILES
NORTH-NORTHWEST OF THE ARPT AND WAS DESTROYED, THE 3 POB SUFFERED FATAL
INJURIES, OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ARE UNKNOWN, NOGALES, AZ.

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 3
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 2 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: KOLS 082054Z AUTO 21010G15KT 10SM CLR A2989

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Take-off Operation: General Aviation

Departed: NOGALES, AZ Dep Date: 06/08/2002 Dep. Time: 2100
Destination: CHANDLER, AZ Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: U
Last Radio Cont: UNKN
Last Clearance: UNKN

FAA FSDO: SCOTTSDALE, AZ (WP07) Entry date: 06/10/2002

 

[azpilot]

I know it was Accelerated because I fly of Stellar. I know some people who know 2 of those involved as well. I didn't know them. I heard today that Mr. Tiffen may have actually flown for a bit and then came back after a problem. The 3 then decided to return to Stellar. This is complete hearsay though. I have heard lots of stories about people who flew there. I know the planes are pieces of junk. Most sounds like crap during run up and when they return to the ramp for engine shutdown. I know why people go to schools like this, to save money. Well sadly their potential careers and life are over with all for trying to save some cash. I hope Stew feels like crap knowing that his shoddy maintenance could have just killed 3 people and I hope his operation gets shut down. Let him takes all of his planes to Malaysia as I have heard he wants to do. The FAA was out at the airport yesterday and I hope they find lots of stuff to write up. He carries no insurance on his aircraft so if the familes were to sue I am sure it would put him out of business.

Peace,
AZPilot

 

[FlyinBrian]

I've noticed the folks who typically defend Stew's Acclerated pilot-whore training bordello are noticably absent from this conversation. I guess it's hard to defend the shady operation when it kills three people. I don't mean to use three deaths to stir up an old pot, but it makes me angry. I hope that some folks understand things a little better now.

 

[Wiggums]

azpilot: Even worse is this situation. I always warned students and instructors about going there because of the lack of insurance. Now that it looks like the instructor was negligent the families also have the option of suing the instructor's estate.

Something to think about if you have money or family...

 

[EAP]

Hmmm. I did my initial CFI checkride with Larry Tiffin back in '92 after my CFI training! Sorry to hear about the fatalities. Small world.

 

[azpilot]

Update:

From talking to folks at the airport they said they saw the plane leave on Saturday and it sounded terrible. I also heard the instructor started with zero time or near zero time and got all of her ratings in the Apache. She had only been an instructor for a few weeks. The pilot in the left seat got his private pilot rating in the Apaches and had little is any single engine time. I don't have any info on the person who was supposed to take his CFI exam. Witnesses said the plane was really skimming the tree tops and homes for a long time. It sounds like they were trying to land on a local freeway and never made it.

In another unrelated crash that happened the same weekend and father and daughter were killed in an experimental bi-plane. This very plane made a off airport landing near Stellar a few months earlier, I am sure this was never reported to the NTSB. The engine failed. It sounds like the top wing came off during this crash.

Folks DON'T CUT CORNERS! It can get you killed.

As many have said regarding the Apache accident. The instructor should not sit and in the back. With these planes especially the instructor better have lots of experience with engine failures. It is my guess that AFCT is done. I think the FAA will find enough issues that they will not want to spend the money to get them resolved.

- AZPilot

 

[Timebuilder]

I hadn't realized that we were talking about in Apache in this instance.

Without the Geronimo conversion (more powerful engines) this plane has a really pronounced rate of descent on one engine. Add a high density altitude to the equation, and you can expect to land SOON in an engine out emergency.

I used to tell my students to pay a great deal of attention to accidents. We don't have the time or the multiple "lives" required to make all, or even some of these mistakes ourselves. We need to analyze the mistakes of others in order to benefit from their experience, especially if that experience was their LAST one.

 

[RJPilot]

FlyinBrian
I've noticed the folks who typically defend Stew's Acclerated pilot-whore training bordello are noticably absent from this conversation. I guess it's hard to defend the shady operation when it kills three people. I don't mean to use three deaths to stir up an old pot, but it makes me angry. I hope that some folks understand things a little better now.

RJPilot
I am still around. Funny without an NTSB report this is all speculation on your part based on a newpaper and not facts. I know the full story and will defend this school based on the knowledge I have about this crash. Let's hope Brian that none of your students violate the standards and proceedures you taught them during training.