Accelerated Flight Crew Crash in AZ

[FlyinBrian]

I know the full story and will defend this school based on the knowledge I have about this crash.

Please do. Fill us in on the full story and then defend them. I would be interested to hear your inside information.

Let's hope Brian that none of your students violate the standards and proceedures you taught them during training.

I too hope that my students fly as I taught them. Then again, I didn't teach them to fly from the back seat or hop into poorly maintained aircraft like AFCT does...

 

[azpilot]

RJPilot
I am still around. Funny without an NTSB report this is all speculation on your part based on a newpaper and not facts. I know the full story and will defend this school based on the knowledge I have about this crash. Let's hope Brian that none of your students violate the standards and proceedures you taught them during training. [/B]

You may still be around but there is no way you can say that the planes at Stellar are well maintained.

How long ago did you fly there? Was it when the maintenance shop was the old beat up Volvo station wagon?

I know quite a few people who have flown there to build time. They have also told me most of the instructors didn't know what the hell they were doing because of their low time and experience as an instructor.

Some of us don't rely on the newspaper as you suggest. I included the article in my original post because it does have merit. It was recommended that they not fly the airplane. I believe someone at Stellar told them to go ahead and fly the plane back. That was a bad decision. Someone should have flown another plane down there with a mechanic to see what was wrong with the airplane. Go ahead and defend Stew. I would like to hear your argument. It is sad that people have to risk their lives in order to have affordble multi-engine time. There is no excuse for having the instructors flying from the back. This may be "paper" legal but it is not safe. Why doesn't Stew carry any insurance on the planes? Why are half of them down for maintenance all the time and I am not talking about 50/100 hour inspections. I know they occur often because the planes are flown so much. Like drinking and driving you may survive driving home drunk from the bar but that doesn't mean it was a safe or smart practice.

My opinion is that those flying the plane were more concerned with how to get back from Nogales if they left the plane on the ground vs. just getting in the plane and flying home. Yes this is my opinion only and we won't know how the NTSB calls it for a long time to come.

It would be nice if we could raise the bar when it comes to training vs. always lowering it.

- AZPilot

 

[RJPilot]

azpilot
You may still be around but there is no way you can say that the planes at Stellar are well maintained.

RJPilot
The FAA gave the school a clean bill of heath AND THE SCHOOL STILL FLY'S TODAY. Since "FlyinBrian" wishes to discuss issues of safety I felt the need to post on the the flight school where he taught. Here is the NTSTB REPORT ON SUNBIRD:

http://204.29.171.80/framer/navigat...name=NTSB&uid=1950422&url=http://www.ntsb.gov


Maybe you could explain this Brian. I landed just as your school flipped a c-172. Yes, I was part of the NTSB and I know you. Any questions? YES I KNOW YOU! Good luck with Eagle!

 

[azpilot]

azpilot
You may still be around but there is no way you can say that the planes at Stellar are well maintained.

RJPilot
The FAA gave the school a clean bill of heath AND THE SCHOOL STILL FLY'S TODAY. Since "FlyinBrian" wishes to discuss issues of safety I felt the need to post on the the flight school where he taught. Here is the NTSTB REPORT ON SUNBIRD:

Maybe you could explain this Brian. I landed just as your school flipped a c-172. Yes, I was part of the NTSB and I know you. Any questions? YES I KNOW YOU! Good luck with Eagle!

Your argument is pretty weak. You make it sound like the FAA has an abundance of inspectors which come around on a weekly basis to check things out. You have a right to your opinion though. I do think you are in the minority and we will see what happens in the long run.

I believe all but possibly one accident at Sunbird were because of pilot error and not a mechnical problem. At least in the past year or so. There is no comparison with a student pilot running off the runway in a perfectly good airplane to those who are killed due to an engine failure.

Why don't you defend your position with the "facts" you claim to have? I don't work for Sunbird or any other school in the valley. So my opinion is not biased based on my employer. It is based on seeing broken airplanes on the ramp all the time and the pathetic sounds they make during runup. The majority of the people at Stellar have said it was only a matter of time before something bad happened. I think the majority was right.

Again I convey my condolences to the families. The father of the instructor on board said his daughter was well on her way with her flying career. I wish she could have afforded a safer environment. As I have stated in previous posts I have personal friends who have flown Stew's planes full well knowing they were pieces of junk. I am glad they were able to survive. I also know their piloting skills are above many of the students there and would most likely survive and engine failure. Stew cut corners while he was a DE and got caught and he has done the same with his school.

- AZPilot

PS: Your link to the NTSB reports didn't work. You might want to past the actual accident number.

 

[JediNein]

S'cuse me guys.

RJPilot, that link led to the NTSB's main page. I did a search on Sunbird. The oldest accident I found was in 2001. They were the usual assortment of student pilots and other pilots not knowing how to land an airplane properly in gusty winds. That school wasn't the only one where instructors didn't know how to teach landings. Is there a particular NTSB Identification Number that you could post?

Same types of problems another flight school in North Las Vegas had until they pushed yet another 100% turnover in their flight instructors. That same flight school didn't make the NTSB records when a student pilot ran out of gas and did a landing on highway 95. There's only a slight mention of an on-airport landing from an engine failure after the plane's engine quit AGAIN a few weeks later and caused substantial damage. That school just repainted the airplane and is covering the crash damage by repainting their entire fleet. As they crash, they get some repairs, and get repainted. Of course the one with the leaking fuel tanks ruined the orginal paint job, so a new job hid that problem too, for another few months. Don't worry, the airplanes show no damage history, just the 100 hour inspection and paint job.

I saw another flight school that thought maintenance was too expensive. Fortunately, the former owner came back and shook things up. That school, after two years of struggling, and a large infusion of cash, prospers today.

Another flight school with pristine airplanes and a large customer base, plus dedicated flight instructors and an excellent location: Two years later they closed their doors during the summer rush when EVERYONE wanted to learn how to fly. They were a good school too until the new owner ran it into the ground with full afterburner.

Now I have several clients that bring their own airplanes. I can refuse to ride in them if they are not airworthy. I must! It's my certificates and life at risk.

Safety? It's up to the individual pilot to choose rental locations that have well-maintained, clean, airplanes. Dirt is not an airworthiness item, however, it does tell a story about how much an owner CARES about the airplane.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[RJPilot]

RJPilot
The FAA gave the school a clean bill of heath AND THE SCHOOL STILL FLY'S TODAY. Since "FlyinBrian" wishes to discuss issues of safety I felt the need to post on the flight school where he taught. HERE IS THE NTSB REPORT ON SUNBIRD WHERE “FLYINBRIAN” TAUGHT:

JUST TYPE IN SUNBIRD! WHAT A SICK PERSON TO POST TO THIS THREAD BEFORE THE NTSB INVESTIGATION.
Maybe you could explain this Brian. I landed just as your school flipped a C-172. Yes, I was part of the NTSB and I know you. Any questions? Good luck with Eagle. Just check the NTSB REPORT ON SUNBIRD AVIATION. THE GOOD OLD FLYINBRIAN.

 

[RJPilot]

I believe someone at Stellar told them to go ahead and fly the plane back.

NO, NOT THE FACTS! AND YES SUNBIRD HAS HAD MANY ACCIDENTS! JUST CHECK THE NTSB REPORTS. AFCT SCHOOL HAD A PLANE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM THAT WAS FUELING FOR DEPARTURE. THIS WAS ADM PROBLEM. TIFFEN FLEW THE PLANE FOR APPROX AN HOUR. THIS WAS NOT A PLANE THE DE REFUSED TO FLY! TIFFEN FLEW THE PLANE FOR APPROX 1 HR FOR THE CHECK RIDE. BTW, I RECIEVED MY RATINGS FROM TIFFIN AND YES A GOOD DE.

 

[RJPilot]

AZ pilot

Check out the NTSB reports on SUNBIRD AVIATION IN ARIZONA not too hard for you or office slut. Meanwhile as I down graded my standards to meet yours I will be happy to end unless you wish to go on? WAITING FOR YOUR FLAME BRIAN!

 

[RJPilot]

JEDINIEN- SEARCH THE DATA BASE

The list is complete on the NTSB!

 

[Wiggums]

RJPilot: Thank you for your barley literate responses to Brian's queries. I enjoyed how your credibility slipped with each post, it was quite entertaining.

I fail to see how a personal attack directed towards Brian or the school he taught at defends Stew's uninsured fleet of fifty year old unairworthy airplanes. You've provided no information to refute Brian's view of Accelerated. Also, I think that bringing up Sunbird's accident record actually hurts your safety argument. Sunbird has had only two fatalities in its almost ten years of operations, and that accident was renters doing something stupid and hitting power lines with a perfectly good airplane. Moreover, Sunbird also has had zero pilot error accidents with an instructor on board as far back as I can determine. Now, if you're really “with” the NTSB as you claim you could bring up examples of accidents at Sunbird due to mechanical failure. However, since the best you have to offer is a story about how some student pilot screwed up I doubt you're really with the NTSB.

RJPilot, since you know the facts of what happened down at Nogales last weekend, why don't you share them with us? You stated in your first post in this thread you said “ I know the full story and will defend this school based on the knowledge I have about this crash.” If you really do have some thing to say to defend Accelerated, why do you have to resort to flaming Brian?

There's a big difference between an student pilot losing directional control and bending a Cessna compared to three people dead because of possible poor maintenance and judgment. People don't usually die during day VFR without something major going wrong. If Stew runs his flight school like he ran his DE gig then I wouldn't want to get within fifty feet of any of his airplanes.

 

[RJPilot]

Simple wiggums- You stated in a previous thread that you and Brian were not associated with sunbird--Straight out lie!!! Care to go back and edit your post?

 

[AZaviator]

Keep in mind, this thread is about the Apache crash from Accelerated Flight Training. This isn't a thread about digging up incidents from other flight schools, just to make Accelerated not look like the red headed step child of flight schools.


RJPilot,

If you really know the story about what happened then LET'S HEAR IT!!! I think we'd all like to know! Tell us what happened, and where you got the facts from. Maybe it could end a lot of the rumors people might be hearing. But, the posts about incidents from Sunbird are pretty useless on this thread. Nobody cares.
If you want to defend your point, then tell us what happened.
That way your statements might gain an ounce of credibility.

 

[Wiggums]

RJPilot: Once again you attempt to undermine the credibility of another member without proof. Please post a link to where I have supposedly made a mistake so we can all view it. If I have truly made an error I will admit to it and correct it.

Now as FlyinBrian, JediNein, azPilot, AzAvaitior and myself have requested, where is the facts you said you'd use to defend Accelerated?

 

[RJPilot]

AZPilot
If you really know the story about what happened then LET'S HEAR IT!!! I think we'd all like to know! Tell us what happened, and where you got the facts from. Maybe it could end a lot of the rumors people might be hearing. But, the posts about incidents from Sunbird are pretty useless on this thread. Nobody cares.
If you want to defend your point, then tell us what happened.
That way your statements might gain an ounce of credibility.

RJPilot
As I said before, TIFFiN FLEW THE PLANE ON THE CHECK RIDE PRIOR TO THE CRASH. The posts about SUNBIRD ARE NOT USELESS SINCE THE POSTER'S WHO REFRERED TO AFCT AS A "pilot-whore training bordello" Taught at the SUNBIRD WHO HAD NUMEROUS CRASHES. This resembles the pot calling the kettle black with out facts about this crash.


__________________

 

[AZaviator]

As I said before, TIFFiN FLEW THE PLANE ON THE CHECK RIDE PRIOR TO THE CRASH. The posts about SUNBIRD ARE NOT USELESS SINCE THE POSTER'S WHO REFRERED TO AFCT AS A "pilot-whore training bordello" Taught at the SUNBIRD WHO HAD NUMEROUS CRASHES. This resembles the pot calling the kettle black with out facts about this crash.

A "pilot whore training bordello?" I guess you're referring to FlyinBrian's post? I've read his comments and have to say they are 110% CORRECT. Any school that pays its instructors $5 an hour to teach should be referred to that, at the least.

Do you have any more info on the AFCT crash? We know Tiffin flew the plane prior to the crash, but what was wrong with it?
Why did he bring it back and refuse to fly in it afterward? Post what else you know, unless what you posted above is all you know. If that's the case, fine and it will continue to appear as if you don't know any more than the rest of us

And, once again, nobody wants to hear about incidents at Sunbird. If FlyinBrian did instruct at Sunbird, who cares? I"m sure he was being paid a lot more than $5/hr to sit in the backseat of an airplane and calling it instructing. As you can see, once again, his "pilot whore training bordello" comment is right on.

 

[azpilot]

RJPilot,

Quit bashing other schools it has NOTHING to do with what might have happened last weekend. If you know more details which you feel would enlighten those who think AFCT is an unsafe place to fly then post them. Otherwise let it go. There are plenty of schools and employers where people have flown with them and survived. That does not mean they are safe. Many pilots take risks for a variety of reasons. Some survive and sadly some don't. This accident may be no different than someone flying a small cargo plane into known icing conditions because they were afraid to lose their job. Again for the record all of my posts and the majority of others have tried to stick to information about this school and this accident vs. using personal flame attacks. Grow up.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I'm glad you know who I am I don't think it's a real big secret around here. I don't imagine that you are going to let me know who you are, but I would find it interesting. Sunbird had its share of mishaps over the past year, there is no doubt. Every flight school has a few mishaps. I guarantee you that none of ours happened while an instructor was sitting uselessly in the back seat. If memory serves, I think azpilot is correct in that only one of our incidents was caused by a mechanical issue, and that was during a maintanence test flight. We did those flight tests to make sure that there wouldn't be a mechanical failure when we returned the aircraft to service. That way, we could better avoid killing our customers by giving them unsafe aircraft.

I will honestly and openly address anyones questions about any public information about Sunbird. But trying to divert attention to my former employer (an organization that I respect.) does not address the criticisms that we all have of Accelerated, which I will summarize below so that you can address them if you wish.

1.) Instructors cannot do their job from the backseat even if there is a legal loophole that may or may not allow it.
2.) Their maintanence department is not adequate for the number of planes they fly.
3.) They don't pay their instructors, thereby selling out the true professionals in the industry

The first two are safety related, and since you still haven't provided us with your "inside information", we suspect that they could have something to do with the recent crash. The third criticism is a matter of professionalism that we could discuss until we're both blue in the face and never reach an agreement.

BTW, keep up the personal attacks. I find them humorous, and anything that makes me smile here in cubicle-hell is worth reading.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Oh, I didn't directly address the fact that I am now the "pot calling the kettle black."

I will be the first to admit that in 2001, Sunbird aircraft were involved in several incidents. But as Wiggums said, very few of them were with an instructor on board. I can think of two cases where there was an instructor on board. One was the above mentioned maintanence flight, in which I think the instructor did the best job possible under some very difficult circumstances. He was able to save himself and his passenger because he was not in the back seat.

The other one was a genuite CFI screw up, and the instructor was fired the next day. Sunbird is a good school that had a rough year. But the incidents were almost all normal things that happen with inexperienced pilots. (By the way JediNein, to make a blanket statement that Subird doesn't know how to teach landings is pretty harsh, and in my opinion unfounded.)

I think that anyone in or outside of aviation can see that Sunbird's incidents bear no resemblance whatsoever to the crash in Nogales. Sunbird does not engage in the practices that we are criticizing AFCT for. Your "pot calling the kettle black" has no merit.

 

[bigD]

::carefully tries to avoid getting wet from the pissing contest::

Okay, I'm confused (when am I not!?) - how exactly does the student benefit from having the instructor in the back seat? I'm assuming that two students are put up front, however it's not as if both are manipulating the controls at the same time - what do I care if I pay $70 for an hour of manipulating the controls or $35 for a half hour of doing it and watching someone else do it for the other half hour? I guess there's some benefit of watching others train, but I just ask for rides and sit in the back to do that. If I'm building time and want to split hood and saftey pilot time with someone, I wouldn't have an instructor in the plane anyway.

Never heard of this whole instructor in the back thing before...weird.

 

[azpilot]

The 3-some defined:

Instructor in back supposedly giving instruction logs the entire flight. He/She can log the time in their sleep as long as no snoring is heard.

The pilot "under the hood" can log the time.

The person in the right seat logs the time as a safety pilot monitoring what the pilot, sole-munipulator, is doing.

So there you have it.

So at AFCT people are paying $55 an hour to fly a twin each. Instructor is paid $5 an hour. (I know yawn here comes the you are just jealous you are not getting all that multi-time reply) All ATPS may work the same way with 2 pilots no CFI in the twin but I am not sure of this. However at All ATS you are paying around $110 an hour.

There are many debates about whether to log PIC time as a safety pilot as well. I am one that believes it is ok to do this.

Another motto is - "Log what you need, fly what you can"
Sadly many subscribe to this way of flying.

"Never wear sandals in a porta potty, the pissing contest gets real messy..."

- AZPilot