Accelerated Flight Crew Crash in AZ

[RJPilot]

Simple wiggums- You stated in a previous thread that you and Brian were not associated with sunbird--Straight out lie!!! Care to go back and edit your post?

 

[AZaviator]

Keep in mind, this thread is about the Apache crash from Accelerated Flight Training. This isn't a thread about digging up incidents from other flight schools, just to make Accelerated not look like the red headed step child of flight schools.


RJPilot,

If you really know the story about what happened then LET'S HEAR IT!!! I think we'd all like to know! Tell us what happened, and where you got the facts from. Maybe it could end a lot of the rumors people might be hearing. But, the posts about incidents from Sunbird are pretty useless on this thread. Nobody cares.
If you want to defend your point, then tell us what happened.
That way your statements might gain an ounce of credibility.

 

[Wiggums]

RJPilot: Once again you attempt to undermine the credibility of another member without proof. Please post a link to where I have supposedly made a mistake so we can all view it. If I have truly made an error I will admit to it and correct it.

Now as FlyinBrian, JediNein, azPilot, AzAvaitior and myself have requested, where is the facts you said you'd use to defend Accelerated?

 

[RJPilot]

AZPilot
If you really know the story about what happened then LET'S HEAR IT!!! I think we'd all like to know! Tell us what happened, and where you got the facts from. Maybe it could end a lot of the rumors people might be hearing. But, the posts about incidents from Sunbird are pretty useless on this thread. Nobody cares.
If you want to defend your point, then tell us what happened.
That way your statements might gain an ounce of credibility.

RJPilot
As I said before, TIFFiN FLEW THE PLANE ON THE CHECK RIDE PRIOR TO THE CRASH. The posts about SUNBIRD ARE NOT USELESS SINCE THE POSTER'S WHO REFRERED TO AFCT AS A "pilot-whore training bordello" Taught at the SUNBIRD WHO HAD NUMEROUS CRASHES. This resembles the pot calling the kettle black with out facts about this crash.


__________________

 

[AZaviator]

As I said before, TIFFiN FLEW THE PLANE ON THE CHECK RIDE PRIOR TO THE CRASH. The posts about SUNBIRD ARE NOT USELESS SINCE THE POSTER'S WHO REFRERED TO AFCT AS A "pilot-whore training bordello" Taught at the SUNBIRD WHO HAD NUMEROUS CRASHES. This resembles the pot calling the kettle black with out facts about this crash.

A "pilot whore training bordello?" I guess you're referring to FlyinBrian's post? I've read his comments and have to say they are 110% CORRECT. Any school that pays its instructors $5 an hour to teach should be referred to that, at the least.

Do you have any more info on the AFCT crash? We know Tiffin flew the plane prior to the crash, but what was wrong with it?
Why did he bring it back and refuse to fly in it afterward? Post what else you know, unless what you posted above is all you know. If that's the case, fine and it will continue to appear as if you don't know any more than the rest of us

And, once again, nobody wants to hear about incidents at Sunbird. If FlyinBrian did instruct at Sunbird, who cares? I"m sure he was being paid a lot more than $5/hr to sit in the backseat of an airplane and calling it instructing. As you can see, once again, his "pilot whore training bordello" comment is right on.

 

[azpilot]

RJPilot,

Quit bashing other schools it has NOTHING to do with what might have happened last weekend. If you know more details which you feel would enlighten those who think AFCT is an unsafe place to fly then post them. Otherwise let it go. There are plenty of schools and employers where people have flown with them and survived. That does not mean they are safe. Many pilots take risks for a variety of reasons. Some survive and sadly some don't. This accident may be no different than someone flying a small cargo plane into known icing conditions because they were afraid to lose their job. Again for the record all of my posts and the majority of others have tried to stick to information about this school and this accident vs. using personal flame attacks. Grow up.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I'm glad you know who I am I don't think it's a real big secret around here. I don't imagine that you are going to let me know who you are, but I would find it interesting. Sunbird had its share of mishaps over the past year, there is no doubt. Every flight school has a few mishaps. I guarantee you that none of ours happened while an instructor was sitting uselessly in the back seat. If memory serves, I think azpilot is correct in that only one of our incidents was caused by a mechanical issue, and that was during a maintanence test flight. We did those flight tests to make sure that there wouldn't be a mechanical failure when we returned the aircraft to service. That way, we could better avoid killing our customers by giving them unsafe aircraft.

I will honestly and openly address anyones questions about any public information about Sunbird. But trying to divert attention to my former employer (an organization that I respect.) does not address the criticisms that we all have of Accelerated, which I will summarize below so that you can address them if you wish.

1.) Instructors cannot do their job from the backseat even if there is a legal loophole that may or may not allow it.
2.) Their maintanence department is not adequate for the number of planes they fly.
3.) They don't pay their instructors, thereby selling out the true professionals in the industry

The first two are safety related, and since you still haven't provided us with your "inside information", we suspect that they could have something to do with the recent crash. The third criticism is a matter of professionalism that we could discuss until we're both blue in the face and never reach an agreement.

BTW, keep up the personal attacks. I find them humorous, and anything that makes me smile here in cubicle-hell is worth reading.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Oh, I didn't directly address the fact that I am now the "pot calling the kettle black."

I will be the first to admit that in 2001, Sunbird aircraft were involved in several incidents. But as Wiggums said, very few of them were with an instructor on board. I can think of two cases where there was an instructor on board. One was the above mentioned maintanence flight, in which I think the instructor did the best job possible under some very difficult circumstances. He was able to save himself and his passenger because he was not in the back seat.

The other one was a genuite CFI screw up, and the instructor was fired the next day. Sunbird is a good school that had a rough year. But the incidents were almost all normal things that happen with inexperienced pilots. (By the way JediNein, to make a blanket statement that Subird doesn't know how to teach landings is pretty harsh, and in my opinion unfounded.)

I think that anyone in or outside of aviation can see that Sunbird's incidents bear no resemblance whatsoever to the crash in Nogales. Sunbird does not engage in the practices that we are criticizing AFCT for. Your "pot calling the kettle black" has no merit.

 

[bigD]

::carefully tries to avoid getting wet from the pissing contest::

Okay, I'm confused (when am I not!?) - how exactly does the student benefit from having the instructor in the back seat? I'm assuming that two students are put up front, however it's not as if both are manipulating the controls at the same time - what do I care if I pay $70 for an hour of manipulating the controls or $35 for a half hour of doing it and watching someone else do it for the other half hour? I guess there's some benefit of watching others train, but I just ask for rides and sit in the back to do that. If I'm building time and want to split hood and saftey pilot time with someone, I wouldn't have an instructor in the plane anyway.

Never heard of this whole instructor in the back thing before...weird.

 

[azpilot]

The 3-some defined:

Instructor in back supposedly giving instruction logs the entire flight. He/She can log the time in their sleep as long as no snoring is heard.

The pilot "under the hood" can log the time.

The person in the right seat logs the time as a safety pilot monitoring what the pilot, sole-munipulator, is doing.

So there you have it.

So at AFCT people are paying $55 an hour to fly a twin each. Instructor is paid $5 an hour. (I know yawn here comes the you are just jealous you are not getting all that multi-time reply) All ATPS may work the same way with 2 pilots no CFI in the twin but I am not sure of this. However at All ATS you are paying around $110 an hour.

There are many debates about whether to log PIC time as a safety pilot as well. I am one that believes it is ok to do this.

Another motto is - "Log what you need, fly what you can"
Sadly many subscribe to this way of flying.

"Never wear sandals in a porta potty, the pissing contest gets real messy..."

- AZPilot

 

[ILS JNKY]

junk

Don't fly junk any more, use to and be stressed out about it old beat up cessnas 172p 1972 era, or 172N 1977 era just to old most of them on the 3rd rebild or so from what i was told.

man it was bad even when the instructor said they were junk.

So , not wanting to sell my lief short i found another place to train, with new planes.

I will pay a little more to fly new , better that than junk .

Just read the NTSB reports get them every month and it is just over whelming to see all miss haps in the publication.

Heart felt reguards to the familys of the pilots

 

[JediNein]

Instructors teaching landings

Howdy!

Sorry about that blanket comment. When I see several landing accidents in a given block of time (2001 in this case) at a particular flight school, it usually indicates an instructor problem. Either someone is letting students and renters get by with poor procedures, or the management is not requiring the instructors to insist on correct landing procedures. Even the FAA handbook had the landing illustration incorrect for several years, now corrected in the latest release.

The NTSB records for desert airports in 2001 are pretty dismal. Winds, complacency, and simply poor pilot technique caused several airports to get new runway lights and signs.

The school I did my initial training at was no better. I went through 7 instructors to find one that could figure out why I couldn't figure out how to land. I got an introduction to the trim wheel and was able to solo a few hours later. The school one of my students learned at didn't do him any favors either. On landing touchdown he drops the yoke to turn off the transponder and other things, then wondered why the aircraft shakes violently on rollout.

Landing accidents are unfortunately not unique to any one flight school. I intended my comments to state Sunbird does not stand out as having several landing accidents and incidents in a given time period. I wanted to know if RJPilot had a particular "stand out" accident in mind, which it appears he does not.

For Sunbird in particular, I sent a good friend there to learn how to land from a certain instructor. The instructor was able to determine her landing problem and a few others, walk her through correcting them, and now she is a private pilot.

I am surprised and dismayed by the crash of one of Accelerated planes and wait rather impatiently to find out the full story.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[FlyinBrian]

Jedi,

Just curious who the Sunbird instructor you sent your student to was. PM me if you don't mind sharing.

 

[weekendwarrior]

I know this is getting off post of the orginal thread, but I wanted to chime in here about Sundbird. First of all, I have flown with Brian (if it's the Brian I am thinking of) in my C-140. He definately knows how to land a plane, even if it is a fast wheel landing in a tail dragger from the right seat with a crosswind in 100 degree temps. If it's not the same Brian, then oh well.

Nevertheless, I am working on my Inst rating at Sunbird. I have flown with 2 of the best instructors I have ever had. And I have had quite a few. Probably 5 different instructors for my private, and a couple with my Instrument. (Double Eagle Aviation, but that's a whole new nightmare).

Anyway, I find that the professionalism, skill, and maintenance of Sunbird's policies are first rate. Yes, they had a couple of accidents, but that only made them make their CFI restrictions higher. Guess what that does? Provides you with more experienced CFI's. Also, they don't rent airplanes out to people anymore, so I imagine the accidents will not be as much of an issue anymore. So to put the Sunbird issue to rest (even though it is off this topic) they are an excellent group of folks. They have well maintained airplanes (C-172 is all I am flying). I don't feel that my flying there is a safety concern whatsoever.

 

[Beechnut]

Sunbird!

I really liked it when I rented a Warrior there several (five or so) years ago.

I couldn't get the right rear latch off the front cowl. The mechanic came out and wanted to know why I felt like I needed to be in there in the first place!!! By this time, I had the clasp partially un-done and the mechanic took his bright orange dead-blow hammer and pounded it back shut!
Me, being the new, nieve Private Pilot, took the aircraft anyway. My fault for taking the airplane, their fault for offering to rent the P.O.S.

S.