ACA might not be joking

[~~~^~~~]

The RJ glut has arrived

I thought ACA was joking, trying to frighten UAL's management into conceeding a better deal on the codeshare, fee for departure, contract. The other side of this is that the Delta pilots are running around saying that their scope will pervent Delta from codesharing with a "Connection" partner that operates aircraft larger than permitted aircraft types under their scope.

Either ACA has decided ALPA's scope does not concern them, or they may be going it alone without Delta. Who knows, but this is interesting to watch.

If ACA has 85 "extra" RJ's from the United business and cancels another 34, that is more airplanes than ASA operates total! There may be a big glut in the market coming!

Bombardier stock slides on order concerns
Tuesday July 29, 10:45 am ET


MONTREAL, July 29 (Reuters) - Bombardier(Toronto:BBDb.TO - News) stock fell another 6 percent on Tuesday morning after a key U.S. client said it would likely cancel up to 34 aircraft orders, or 10 percent of Bombardier's regional aircraft order backlog.

Bombardier class B shares were down 27 Canadian cents at C$4.66 at mid morning on the Toronto Stock Exchange (News - Websites), where they were the most heavily traded issue. The stock has lost 11 percent in the last two days.

Atlantic Coast Airlines (NasdaqNM:ACAI - News) said on Monday it expects to cancel up to 34 orders for 50-seat regional jets in favor of 15 to 25 larger aircraft from Boeing Co.(NYSE:BA - News) or Airbus.

A Bombardier spokesman said Atlantic Coast had not officially informed the company of the order cancellation.

Atlantic Coast made the announcement as it unveiled plans to transform itself into a low-cost airline after failing to reach an agreement over its regional feeder contract with United Airlines(OTC BB:UALAQ.OB - News).

 

[sabreliner]

Does anyone know for SURE, not rumor or speculation, but FOR SURE, if the DAL/ACA deal precludes ACA from operating bigger A/C under another code. I wouldn't think that DAL would want a relationship with someone they we competing with, but who knows.

 

[groundpointsix]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i believe that ACA owns two certificates, ACA and AC Jet. Could they potentially bypass the scope of the DL contract by operating under the other certificate? I haven't seen anything official since this story broke regarding the Dojets or Delta.

 

[pilotyip]

back in 1996

ACA faced code share issues with UAL back in 96 when they were going to get the RJ's, UAL ALPA said no jets on feeder routes. ACA said "The gates at IAD belong to us, we will operate jets with or without you, UAL decided to keep them as a feeder. They may have gone down in flames, but UAL did not call thier bluff.

 

[2000flyer]

Posted today on AIN Online - ACA Article

Atlantic Coast Airlines To Sever Ties with United
After months of fruitless negotiations for a new code-share deal with United Airlines, Sterling, Va.-based Atlantic Coast Airlines has decided to sever ties with its long-time partner and pursue a new plan to become an independent low-fare carrier based at Washington Dulles Airport. The plan involves the continued use of ACA’s 85 fifty-seat Bombardier CRJs on routes of up to 1,000 miles and a new fleet of either Boeing 737s or the Airbus A320 family of twinjets for longer routes. ACA said it has held discussions with other airlines for new code-share contracts under which it would remain independent and operate under its own brand. In any case, ACA’s Delta Connection operation will remain in full effect, it said. ACA would not issue a start date for the independent operation because its plans still hinge on United’s rejection of the partners’ United Express agreement, an option United enjoys under a bankruptcy court ruling. Until that time, said ACA, it intends to fulfill its obligations under the current contract.

 

[guyincognito]

Just curious:

If they get 737s or 320s, do they hire experienced street captains? Do the senior guys get the FO spots, then replace the street captains once they get enough experience? How's this work?

 

[SkywayFO]

It will all be our pilots

 

[guyincognito]

OK, but how does that work? How do you train people quick enough that they are safe and familiar on new equipment. It seems to me that when any airline adds new equipment, for a while you are going to have new captains flying with new FOs. (On that equipment.) Can you safely switch from captain on an RJ to captain on a 737 with just sim training, a few bounces and a type rating? Or 737 to 767, or 1900 to CRJ, etc?

I'm just an outsider who's curious with how this works.

Thanks

 

[tarp]

Well ACA (or its Westair start) has operated Dash's, Brasilia's, Jetstreams, CRJ's and Dornier Jets. As far as I know in every new airplane, they sent out the senior guys, they got training and then came back and trained the fleet. They didn't hire outside CRJ people when the CRJ's arrived and they didn't hire Dornier people (if there were any) when that plane came on property. As a product of one of the first Dornier classes, it can be frustrating to be in the "new" airplane at the barn, but I'll give a lot of credit to the structure and comraderie of the ACA folks to get it done and understood. Green on green rules were used for the Dornier to keep people out of trouble in the first few months of operation.

 

[Wiggums]

Airplane is an airplane. RJ can't be that much different from an A320 or 737.

 

[El Duderino]

Excuse my ignorance, but what are Green on Green rules.

thanks
duder

 

[enigma]

Excuse my ignorance, but what are Green on Green rules.

thanks
duder

I don't try and remember info that won't apply to me in the next few months, so I've forgotten the exact hours, but "green on green" refers to a 121 rule that dictates that someone in the cockpit must have at least 75 hours in the type of aircraft. This rule is routinely exempted for new fleet types. The rule is aimed at keeping an airline from pairing a new FO with a newly upgraded Captain who had not flown the type before the upgrade. Not a problem for single type carriers like SWA, but take AA for example. A pilot could spend his FO career in Boeings, but take the Maddog or Fokker for the upgrade; in which case he can't be paired with a newhire FO.

Hope this helps,
enigma

 

[ifly4food]

I think that it's just a threat to put the heat on UAL to keep them.

The whole deal is reminiscent of the days right before Delta executed its hostile takeover of Comair. That could get interesting.

As for the DAL PWA "prohibiting" codeshare with ACA, the DCI operation would go back under the ACJet certificate. ACJet is a wholly owned sub of ACA's parent company. In this regard, the Delta PWA wouldn't be applicable because ACA and ACJet would be separate companies.
This separate companies argument is the same one that the Delta pilots used to thwart a merger when ASA and Comair were purchased by Delta. It's funny to hear Delta pilots scream how "separate companies" is only applicable when it's in their benefit, but I guess that's what we've come to expect. Maybe there's too much lead in the water down there in Peachtree City.

 

[46Driver]

I am going to disagree with you here. I do think we have every intention of going it alone - or with somebody other than United. (hopefully Sir Richard Branson and Virgin) News today in the USA Today (via the Denver newspaper) that UAL may be forced to close down its Dulles hub and rely on US Air.

 

[rightrudder]

Green on green doesn't apply with a new A/C type is introduced.

 

[Bravo F/O]

So what you are saying is neither pilot has experience in the new airframe. To me that sounds worse then "green on green".

 

[Typhoon1244]

Can you safely switch from captain on an RJ to captain on a 737 with just sim training, a few bounces and a type rating?

Oh no! Of course not! Flying a 50,000 pound jet does absolutely nothing to prepare you for flying a 100,000 pound jet. That would be like transitioning from a bicycle to...a bigger bicycle! Suicide!



I expect this kind of ignorance from the general public. Sad to see a question like this coming from a pilot.

 

[siedkick]

Probably wouldn't be too bad once you got used to the slower approach speeds.

 

[guyincognito]

Wow, Typhoon, got some anger management issues there?

For starters, I AM part of the 'general public'. I'm just a little 'ol private pilot, living vicariously through you guys by surfing this board, while doing my part to keep you in a job. (I've flown over 80,000 miles this year.) I rent a lot of cars in my line of work. If I'm driving a Ford one day, then a Chevy the next, it takes a few minutes to sort out where all the switches are. When I transitioned from Cessnas to Pipers, it took a few flights to start feeling comfortable in the new plane. Is it 'ignorant' of me to think it might take a while for even a brilliant, infallible CRJ captain like yourself to get comfortable switching from a Bombardier to a Boeing?

Call me crazy, but as much time as I spend in the back of your planes I'd like to know that at least one of the guys up front knows his aircraft intimately, because if and when the shizit hits the fan, I don't want 2 guys who've been in the airplane for a combined total of 43 hours flipping through the manual trying to troubleshoot the thing.

And if I'm so 'ignorant', why does the FAA even have the green on green rules? (Yes, I know the FAA has a lot of stupid rules, but this one sounds ligit.) Does it really make any sense to have this rule, but then say: "Oh, you just bought the plane and NOBODY in your company has experience on it? In that case, don't worry about it."

Go back and read my post again Typhoon, tell me where the ignorance is...

 

[LGAPilot]

Green on green doesn't apply with a new A/C type is introduced.

It's not that green on green doesn't apply. It's just that the airline is issued a waiver from the FAA. I was initial cadré on the J328 and was line checked to be a captain and a checkairman on the same day (August 1, 2000).

Acquring larger a/c will be no different. We will receive a green on green waiver from the feds and the initial cadre will be trained by contract sim instructors who are experienced in whatever type we acquire.

LGAPilot