ACA might not be joking

[Bravo F/O]

So what you are saying is neither pilot has experience in the new airframe. To me that sounds worse then "green on green".

 

[Typhoon1244]

Can you safely switch from captain on an RJ to captain on a 737 with just sim training, a few bounces and a type rating?

Oh no! Of course not! Flying a 50,000 pound jet does absolutely nothing to prepare you for flying a 100,000 pound jet. That would be like transitioning from a bicycle to...a bigger bicycle! Suicide!



I expect this kind of ignorance from the general public. Sad to see a question like this coming from a pilot.

 

[siedkick]

Probably wouldn't be too bad once you got used to the slower approach speeds.

 

[guyincognito]

Wow, Typhoon, got some anger management issues there?

For starters, I AM part of the 'general public'. I'm just a little 'ol private pilot, living vicariously through you guys by surfing this board, while doing my part to keep you in a job. (I've flown over 80,000 miles this year.) I rent a lot of cars in my line of work. If I'm driving a Ford one day, then a Chevy the next, it takes a few minutes to sort out where all the switches are. When I transitioned from Cessnas to Pipers, it took a few flights to start feeling comfortable in the new plane. Is it 'ignorant' of me to think it might take a while for even a brilliant, infallible CRJ captain like yourself to get comfortable switching from a Bombardier to a Boeing?

Call me crazy, but as much time as I spend in the back of your planes I'd like to know that at least one of the guys up front knows his aircraft intimately, because if and when the shizit hits the fan, I don't want 2 guys who've been in the airplane for a combined total of 43 hours flipping through the manual trying to troubleshoot the thing.

And if I'm so 'ignorant', why does the FAA even have the green on green rules? (Yes, I know the FAA has a lot of stupid rules, but this one sounds ligit.) Does it really make any sense to have this rule, but then say: "Oh, you just bought the plane and NOBODY in your company has experience on it? In that case, don't worry about it."

Go back and read my post again Typhoon, tell me where the ignorance is...

 

[LGAPilot]

Green on green doesn't apply with a new A/C type is introduced.

It's not that green on green doesn't apply. It's just that the airline is issued a waiver from the FAA. I was initial cadré on the J328 and was line checked to be a captain and a checkairman on the same day (August 1, 2000).

Acquring larger a/c will be no different. We will receive a green on green waiver from the feds and the initial cadre will be trained by contract sim instructors who are experienced in whatever type we acquire.

LGAPilot

 

[Britpilot]

Call me crazy, but as much time as I spend in the back of your planes I'd like to know that at least one of the guys up front knows his aircraft intimately, because if and when the shizit hits the fan, I don't want 2 guys who've been in the airplane for a combined total of 43 hours flipping through the manual trying to troubleshoot the thing.

To be a Captain operating under Part 121 requires:

A type rating in the aircraft to be operated (this will require you to become "intimate" with the aircraft and all it.s systems as well as demonstrating the ability to operate said aircraft in all modes of flight, including emergencies)

Complete annual recurrent ground training (systems, CRM, company operations and pass written tests on said ground school)

Complete (succesfully) a simulator session every six months. This must include such items as; emergency procedures, low vis take offs, Cat 2 approaches ect.

Complete an annual "line check" conducted by a conpany check airman during a routine flight.

At any time be checked by an inspector from the FAA

Bottom line is; it is not easy to become certified aircrew on 121 operations, even when new to an airplane there is very little "book flipping" at any phase of flight. In fact usually you know the aircraft the best when fresh from training.
Experiance will improve your working knowledge of the aircraft and "feel" for it's handling.
Time on the aircraft and age of the flight crew has little bearing on safety of flight when it comes to 121 operations.

 

[j41driver]

Hey there guyincognito,

Never mind what typhoon said. Maybe this will help out...

When we transition to a new aircraft at ACA (and all airlines for that matter) there is a lengthy training program that we follow. We spend approx 2 weeks learing the systems of the aircraft followed by a written test. Then we spend several more days studying the operational rules at our airline (new hire pilots spend a week or so on this) and have another written test. Once all of that is complete we are put through Cockpit Procedures Training (CPT). This is where we basically sit in a paper mockup of the cockpit and we go over all of the various checklists, flows, profiles, callouts, etc. Once we have 2 or 3 days of CPT, we are sent to the simulator. We have 12 hours (3 sessions) in the simulator practicing normal operations, abnormal ops, approaches, emergencies, etc. After the first 3 sims we have our oral which can be pretty in dpeth and cover any/all of the information regarding the aircraft and/or how we operate as an airline. Once we pass the oral it is back to the simulator for more learning and practice. There are 5 or 7 more training sim sessions (4 hours each) and then 2 check rides, a maneuvers evaluation (MV) and a Line Oriented Evaluation (LOE). During the MV you are asked to perform stalls, steep turns, stall recoveries, 2 engine approaches (precision & non-precision), single engine approaches (precision & non-precision), go arounds (1 & 2 engine), etc. The LOE is treated as if it is a regular line flight from one airport to another. Everything is gone over just as it would be if we were in the actual aircraft doing the flight for real. During this LOE the instructor also throws in some abnormals or emergencies so he can evaluate how well you deal with those situations. Once you have safely landed the "aircraft" the LOE is over and, for captains, we are issued temporary pilot certificates with our new type rating on it. Once all of that is complete (takes about 1.5-2 months) it is finally time to fly the aircraft. Training is still not over once we reach the aircraft. We still have Initial Operating Experience (IOE) to complete. For the first 25 hours we have to fly with a IOE captain who's job is to make sure that we can safely make the transition from flying the simulator to flying the real thing. At the end of IOE we have a FAA observation ride where a Fed has to ride in the jumpseat and be sure that the new captain has been trained properly and is operating safely. Only after all of this is complete are we considered to be line qualified pilots. For the first 75 hours (ACA uses 100 hours) after we are finished with all of this we are considered "green" and can't fly with another pilot who is also green. In addition, our weather minimums increase by 200' & 1/2 mile meaning that if the airport we are scheduled to go to has an ILS approach thats mins are listed as 200 & 1/2 we would need at least 400 & 1 to be legal to go there.

Sorry for the somewhat lenghty post but I just wanted you to know that we aren't just tossed the keys and a manual to a brand new aircraft type and told not to crash it. There's a bit more to it than that.

Looks like Britpilot posted his before I got done with mine...argghh.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Wow, Typhoon, got some anger management issues there?

No, not really. In fact, nine out of ten first officers don't mind flying with me at all...and that tenth guy is an assh0le.

Just wait until you start getting question like that: "Oh, it's just a little plane. How long do you have to fly those before they let you fly the real ones?" That attitude is part of what keeps "small-jet" pay at abyssmally low levels.

If I'm driving a Ford one day, then a Chevy the next, it takes a few minutes to sort out where all the switches are. When I transitioned from Cessnas to Pipers, it took a few flights to start feeling comfortable in the new plane. Is it 'ignorant' of me to think it might take a while for even a brilliant, infallible CRJ captain like yourself to get comfortable switching from a Bombardier to a Boeing?

...and...

Can you safely switch from captain on an RJ to captain on a 737 with just sim training, a few bounces and a type rating?

Now, I'm typing this in a good-natured way, so don't get upset: you are ignorant...but that doesn't mean "stupid." You just don't realize what's involved in airline transition training. "Sim training, a few bounces, and a type rating" are nothing to dismiss so carelessly!

It starts with two weeks of ground school, eight hours a day...not counting individual and group study time. During that time you learn systems, procedures, and you're drilled on emergency procedures until you can do them in your sleep.

That's followed by three or four days in a Cockpit Procedures Trainer, the "Paper Tiger," wherein you learn just where all those buttons and switches are. More emergency procedures training. Checklist flows and profiles are practiced.

Then you head for seven to ten days of simulator training...four-hour sessions preceded by a two to three hour briefing. By the fifth day, most people can find anything they want in the cockpit with their eyes closed. (If you're smart, you're still doing some heavy-duty studying when you're not in the sim.) If you survive all that, you're given a two-hour oral exam covering systems and procedures, followed by a four-hour all-or-nothing checkride. If you survive that, congratulations, you just got your type rating.

Off you go to a week or two of flying the line (with passengers) with a check captain in the other seat. Somewhere during that time, you'll have to fly a round-trip with your friendly local FAA inspector sitting on the jumpseat.

Trust me, transitioning from one airliner to another at a Part 121 carrier is not like you and your instructor moving from an Arrow to a Seminole. It'll be like nothing you've ever experienced before. (And it's the same process whether you're going to fly a Brasilia or a 747.)

As for "green-on-green" issues, those are waived when new equipment comes on the property. Months before the first airframe arrives, the training department sends its people to learn the new airplane. Often, at first, you'll see captains flying the line with instructors, then captains flying with captains, then finally after a couple of months, captains and F/O's.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I want you to understand that even on their first flight with passengers nobody is fumbling for switches or flipping through manuals...not much, anyway!

 

[guyincognito]

Brit, j41 and Typhoon, thanks for the replys.

Typhoon: Point taken on the ignorant comment. After I posted my last reply I thought about modifying it since the definition of 'ignorant' is uneducated. So you are correct. I'll conceed that. I just didn't quite appreciate the tone. Thanks for taking the time to clarify and educate me a little more.

I do realize you guys go through a heck of a lot of training before they'll give you the keys to these planes. BUT, I've got a few more questions pertaining to some of the things in the past few replys. NOTE: This is purely for my educational purposes. I ask so that you may teach...

"Off you go to a week or two of flying the line (with passengers) with a check captain in the other seat."

-- Where does the check captain come from when it's brand new (to your airline) equipment? Somebody's got to be first, and before that there is no check captain, right?

"Often, at first, you'll see captains flying the line with instructors, then captains flying with captains, then finally after a couple of months, captains and F/O's."

-- Same question. Captains with Captains, but still brand new to the equipment, right? And before you have experienced captains, where do these instructors come from?

"For the first 25 hours we have to fly with a IOE captain who's job is to make sure that we can safely make the transition from flying the simulator to flying the real thing. At the end of IOE we have a FAA observation ride where a Fed has to ride in the jumpseat and be sure that the new captain has been trained properly and is operating safely. Only after all of this is complete are we considered to be line qualified pilots. For the first 75 hours (ACA uses 100 hours) after we are finished with all of this we are considered "green" and can't fly with another pilot who is also green."

-- If your airline ususally won't allow you to fly green on green, why is it OK to waiver that just because it's new equipment?

And I understand about the 6 month and annual checks, but that doesn't really pertain to the first 6 months flying the brand new equipment.

In my hypothetical world, your airline would send a group of captains out to get familiar on the aircraft and fly it around for those 75 hours, passenger-less, to get the experience. But I'm sure that's not really fiscally feasible.

Again, I'm not questioning the quality, difficulty or dedication it takes to become a captain (or f/o or s/o for that matter). And I know that an airplane is an airplane when it comes to good decision making and stick-and-rudder skills. I'm purely talking systems and 'new plane' quirks that can only be fully understood (seems to me) with experience in the aircraft.

Go easy on me now...

And sorry for hijacking this thread.

 

[Typhoon1244]

In my hypothetical world, your airline would send a group of captains out to get familiar on the aircraft and fly it around for those 75 hours, passenger-less, to get the experience.

In a perfect world, we could do that. Back in the days before Level C and D sims, there was a lot of training done in empty aircraft. Unfortunately, in this economic environment, we can't afford to do that.

And besides, it's unnecessary. Going from, say, a CRJ-700 to a 757 is not like going from a Chevy to an X-wing fighter. There are only so many ways to design systems. Look at the CRJ and the 7-5: electrics, hydraulics, pneumatics, avionics, powerplant...all the same stuff is there. It's just layed-out and operated a little differently. Once you've learned all the systems for a large aircraft, the next one comes pretty easy. Say, for example, all you'd ever flown was a Seminole. I'll bet you could still take some pretty good guesses about the Aztec's electrical system based on what you understand about the Seminole's, right?

As for waiving the green-on-green restrictions...well, everybody has to start somewhere. The manufacturer can't just loan you rated pilots for 75-hours! Like I said before, months before our CRJ's started arriving, the training folks headed for Canada to go the same training I outlined before. Then they work with the manufacturer's instructors to train up the first batch of line pilots.

Now remember, these instructors each have 5000-10000 hours flying other types of airliners, so the learning curve isn't that steep. Suppose you had a hundred hours in the Cessna 152, but now you're going to take some folks up in a 172 that you've only had fifteen hours in. Should they be nervous? No, of course not. But the situation is similar.

 

[Broke in CVG]

I was doing my upgrade IOE last week. A little girl (10 years old) came up into the cockpit after the flight.... My IOE Capt explained to the girl that he was the "old Capt" and I was a "new Capt" in training... she saw me reading the terminating checklist and said, "you better learn that better because if we are about to crash you won't have time to read that."