ACA Dornier payrates???

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

I too think the ACA pilots are great people, and I of course know a couple on the Do-Jo. But I had a problem with one thing that you stated:

"That would only happy if CMR bought the whole airline of ACA, not just the D-jets." (I think happy was supposed to be happen)

General you are correct, "happy" was supposed to be happen and referred only to a merger, which does not apply in this hypothetical situation.

We all know that Comair doesn't buy anything anymore--Delta does. Comair is just a subsidiary and Delta does the buying.

I agree that Delta is in control. But be careful how you make the link. That's the problem with subsidiaries. They "are" when it's convenient (as in your reference) and they "are not" when it's not convenient (as in my reference).

It would not be convenient in this case for Delta to "buy" anything. That would require the creation of yet another subsidiary or worse, trigger a merger. Yes, they could, but is that practical? I think not. Therefore, Comair (or ASA or Song) would become the "buyer". We all know that the final decisions will be made in the Delta Board Room, but the technical differences associated with subsidiaries are the reason for their existence. Delta will use whichever subsidiary it wants to and make the acquisition through that subsidiary (if it happens). On paper, the "buyer" will be Comair (if that is Delta's choice), not Delta.

There are reasons for these corporate shell games and sometimes the reasons are very important. For example, it Delta wanted to acquire all of ACA, you can bet your bottom dollar that the "buyer" would not be Delta. Delta would use one of its subsidiaries to make the purchase. Why? Because a buy by Delta itself would trigger a merger (ACA contract) with Delta, and that ain't going to happen. You'll have to agree that a merger between ACA and CMR or ACA and ASA, would be very different from a merger between DAL and ACA.

Sometimes the nuances of these things are subtle and escape us.

If Delta gets the 33 Dojos, they will figure out who flies them, and it might very well be the Comair pilots, or it could be offered to the 1060 furloughs that are still out. We don't know, but they have a qualified group of pilots that probably would take that, even at lower rates, while waiting to get back to Delta mainline. IF they got Captain slots, I bet they would. This could be another case of management trying to massage Dalpa into giving paycuts...We shall see my friend. The RJDC could not argue with this one. We have pilots who are in need of jobs and can't find one unless they give up their numbers. Who knows?

All that is possible and I agree. However, I don't think its practical, for the reasons I stated in the previous post. Having to train that many pilots into a new type is a big problem, no matter where Delta decides to place the aircraft.

Sure they could create a new subsidiary and hire the Delta furloughees. It would be nice for those guys, but I think it would be prohibitively expensive for the Company. Perhaps I'm wrong. Another more simple thing they could do is attachh it to one of the present subsidiaries, and mandate that the vacancies be filled by the furloughed Delta pilots. That however, would present huge problems of seniority and contractual difficulties with all the subsidiaries (except maybe Song). It would become Delta's version of Jets for Jobs. You can only imagine the upheaval that a jets for jobs program would trigger in the Delta system. Trust me on that. Delta management isn't going to risk that.

I think its great that you're defending the furloughd guys, but you're not the Company. The Company isn't going to do anything to hurt itself to help those guys. If that were the case, they wouldn't be furloughed now.

However it's done, IF it is done, I just hope that we don't hurt anyone else in the process.

 

[surplus1]

If the FRJs do go to CMR with the option of the crews as well, leaving ACA at a time like this is a big gamble. CMR does represent a degree of stability at a well-run airline with great professional aviators, yet being a part of this new LCC airline is in itself an exciting prospect. These are the types of gambles this industry is famous for. ACA pilots have a tremendous amount of pride in our airline and in our future. I cannot see a mass migration over to CMR or ASA. Maybe a few but most people I talk to seem to want to fight this LCC war and do what they can to be on the "first list."

One thing I believe I can tell you for sure is that every Comair pilot that was here before the purchase of our airline by Delta, shares an understanding of your desire to "go on your own" and try to make it. We would have been more than happy to move on and leave the widgets to their own devices. But, it wasn't to be and it didn't happen. Nothing we can do about that any more.

Just the same, we can understand why it's a hard choice and why you would want to stay with your own.

It would be a privilege to work on the Comair list and I only hope that they could welcome the ACA guys with open arms and hugs.....well...maybe not hugs. AD

Thank you for the kind words. I can't promise hugs either, but IF this happens, I hope you would all come at once with your aircraft and I'm pretty sure that you would be welcomed here, indeed with open arms.

We wish you success with your new venture.

 

[Patriot328]

Well if y'all do get em, just make sure your parts supplier is good!


It is a shame the plane is not more reliable than it is. It is the best <500mi bird out there. And yes, it is more comfortable, better avionics, and talking to our pilots that have flown both birds, it's much more fun to fly than the CRJ.. It is annoying having to go find all the lose items you may have left sitting next to you before take off. Everything goes sliding back in the cockpit when you shove those power levers forward and pitch it up to 20deg to keep it under 200kts on initial climbout.

Winter time is comin.. can't wait for those 8,000fpm days again.. sucks only doing 4-5,000 fpm in the turn to 090 on the rocket 1 dept.


As for them heading to DelComAsa, I'm not even going to worry about it until the announcement comes out. Nothing I can do about it right now.

 

[embraerjetpilot]

Gotta say it...cant resist..

Dork JEt

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I agree with you again on some parts. I think the possible "merger" between Delta and ACA (CVG) would not happen. But, Delta could create another DCI and staff it with whoever they chose, and the amount available pilots who are furloughed is staggering. Who knows what they could offer? My friends who are furloughed currently think they would like the opportunity to fly "left seat" in those planes, if offered the chance. Now, again I say that I am only "wondering aloud"---and I do not wish any ACA pilot any harm---and I again wouldn't be saddened if they were to continue flying for DCI. I wouldn't wish anyone out of a job. Since the Dojos are currently flying for Delta and the DCI, I would think that Delta, not Dalpa, would have the final say in who flies them IF ACA has to give them up. I still think Delta might offer some of the seats to the furloughs in an effort to get more concessions. Hey, it could happen. Maybe. I hope it does for the 1060 guys still out.(As long as the ACA guys aren't affected)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ryjacks]

General,
As for thinking aloud, right now it would seem feasible to take the 33 328s to DAL, but when things turn around now what do you do?

Keep them at DAL? Or Give them to whomever wants them and now DAL has paid for numerous training cycles in just a couple of years.

Also, what is the deal with furloughed pilots wanting the "left seat?" They already have a mainline job and I quote you "a flying job is better than umemployment line." So why not just be an FO for 3 years and be happy.

I doubt DAL will force ACA out of the contract seeing they have larger fish to fry at this time.

Good luck ACA.

RJ

 

[Patriot328]

Gotta say it...cant resist..

Dork JEt

ooooo I'm insulted...

 

[General Lee]

ryjacks,

I know Delta has more important problems to solve right now, but I was commenting on what would happen if ACA were to "give up " the leases on the 33 Dojos if the contract was broken due to the new LCC. I honestly don't know what will happen, and you are probably right about the excessive amount of training cycles. But, Delta sometimes seems not to care much about the training issues and costs.....I don't know what will happen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DarnNearaJet]

You've got to love this board. Someone starts a rumour about the remote possibility of ACA someday letting go of the 328's and suddenly 2 pages of conjecture appear.

Anyway .. ahem .. being typed in both aircraft I would like to say the following ...

328 advantages:

1) Better radar (it's like having 2 separate dishes.)
2) More fun to fly in the pattern and take-off.
3) VNAV
4) FADEC
5) Slightly better FMS
6) Much simpler systems (the entire electrical schematic is overhead.)
7) More secret hiding places for porn.
8) The hamburger door!

328 disadvantages:
1) Uncomfortable cockpit seats (you feel the metal after the fifth leg of the day)
2) Short hops = many legs/harder work/no time to read the McPaper.
3) Velcro everwhere (but see #7 above)
4) If you push/pull anything too hard it breaks off in your hands (it's a throwaway airplane.)
5) Weight limits
6) 5 CRT's instead of 6 means someone loses their map display when you need to look at a systems page.
7) You have to shut down the APU when you leave the a/c. (That's not so bad, they're usually deferred.)
8) The packs suck in the summer.
9) The avionics may be more advanced but they also have less processing power (be prepared to lose a screen, maybe see a big red X for a second or two, when you change displays.)
10) No flight spoilers
11) No T-R's
12) No buffer between the cockpit and the first row of pax (open the door and there they are, nice and cosy!)
13) Doesn't handle turbulence as well as the CRJ.
14) It's a MX pig!
15) Can't move the cockpit seats back far enough.
16) Can't write in the logbook when people are boarding because one pax climbing the steps is enough to make the whole a/c rock.
17) That cockpit lighting! It's more GM than Mercedes. The map light shines perfectly on the back of your head, leaving your lap in the dark.
18) No clipboard on the yoke, instead it's off to the side and drops anything you stick in that little plastic "clip."
17) Handles like a big top-heavy 172 on the ground (watch those turns off the runway.)
20) The hamburger door (some ramper always yells up at you "three more checked bags!")

 

[comrcap]

My opinion is to offer DOH to the DO Jet pilots that come from ACA on the Comair list.
DALPA would never offer this to the Cmr/ASA group, but that is no surprise. And General Lee, No, furloughed pilots at DAL don't have special rights at "wholly owned subsidiaries".
Delta intends to grow DCI and SONG, while Mainline shrinks. Soon the smallest A/C at Mainline will be the 737-800. Domestic service will be predominantly RJ's. Get your head out of your B*tt! DCI IS DELTA! As much as Mainline. Profit drives capital spending and we took 33 A/C at Comair during a FISCAL CRISIS!
DUHHHH! Can't see the forest through the trees, huh.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Interesting, but...

Now I understand what did not make sense to me at the beginning of August....

I went to Fred Reid's meeting with the pilots and hung around afterwards to ask DCI type questions. When I asked about aircraft the first thing said was that Delta would like to be rid of the Dornier jets. I asked if this was due to ACAI's announced intent and violations of the Delta Pilots' PWA, they said "no" and acted like it was the first time they had heard of the scope limitation. They did say that they did not like the reliability and cost of operating the aircraft for the ASM it produces.

Later the same week DCI's President was quoted in Reeds Business as saying that Delta was looking at ecercising options for Canadair equipment, if they could get scope relief, or Embraer jets. IMHO the Embraer jets might be 145 instead of the 170 / 190 that everyone assumed he was talking about.

And there remains the issue of scope. DCI is back up against the percentage of block hour limits. There is not much "growth" to be had within DCI and (I may be mistaken) scope does not come back on the table until 2005.

The way I'm thinking, a likely scenario is that ACA is phased out and Comair phased in with current equipment deliveries. Not only does this make sense from a scope view, but also the CRJ produces nearly 200% the ASMs the Dornier Jet does, so it allows for growth AND Delta is out of money. They simply do not have the Capital / cash flow for buying new equipment unless somehow DCI is split away from mainline Delta.

 

[legalalien]

I am the only one that thinks that perhaps Delta has decided to give the DoJets to Chatauqua (SP?).

It seems strange that they are talking about a TA suddenly happening at the same time as strong rumours surface about getting a further 30 airplanes for Delta Connection.

 

[General Lee]

Comrcapt,


Hmmmm. So, the 738 will be the smallest thing at mainline, right? I guess you haven't been listening to anything about the 100 seater, huh? You need to get your head out of your a$$, big time. Fred Reid supposedly said in the last "in command seminar" for new Capt's that the A318 was still in the lead. Oh yeah, I guess you guys want that too, right? Nope. You are right about Song and DCI growing, but there will always be the need for mainline feed into ATL and CVG---and my guess is the 100 seater along with the 738, and 764 for bigger cities will do the trick. Oh yeah, the 7E7 is also being looked at for replacing the 767 domestic. I am glad we got this straight. See ya.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[46Driver]

ACA's contract with Delta runs through Sept 2009. If we are phased out before then, then Delta has to buy the Dorniers. If Delta buys the Dorniers, I don't see them giving them to an independant company (i.e., Chautaqua or SkyWest) but to either Comair or ASA.

Also, lets not hijack yet another thread into the Delta/Comair feud....

 

[General Lee]

46driver,

I know, I know. But when somebody tells me to get my head out of my bu@t, I like to respond.

Bye Bye--General Lee