ACA Dornier payrates???

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

This *CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED* thing is stupid. What are they afraid of? I wonder if they walk around and interupt people when they are about to say **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, or **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, and hollar CENSOREDCENSOREDCENSORED, then cover their ears and say LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALAL, I'M NOT LISTENING, LALALALALALALALALA.

gET REAL.

 

[exphojump]

First,

Dragster would be more accurate since the engines have to be replaced so often.

The avionics package is sweeet, to be able to split the sweeps on the radar comes in handy. CA sweep low FO sweep on auto.

Granted the CRJ is more dependable and faster enroute. Seat wise I prefer any of the window seats because you can lean against the wall and sleep. The CRJ window seats encourage bad posture and the Lear lean. Being over 6 foot I don't have to stoop as much walking in the Dorkjet.

Second,

This idea of a step down in pay and equipment, I believe, is the achilles heel of the airline industry. DAL and all of the Legacy carriers should have been happy to fly all equipment under their airline code. Look at XJT, they are all jet but subcontracting out the turboprop flying now, instead of having their own furloughed people fly the 1900s/EMB120s. Would you rather have CMR/ASA fly the FRJs or Skywest fly the EMB 120s while Chatauqua flies the EMB135s?

For ACAI to work as an independent airline I believe we need the fewest amount of aircraft types. If Bombardier sells a 19 seat CRJ for the right price and we can make money flying it, bring it on, even if it is less pay.

Total scope, right down to the Piper Cub.

 

[House_X]

i guess that all depends on who you ask. i jumpseat it a lot and i beg to differ on a few points.

ok, it climbs well, but we all know it's slow in cruise so i would hardly call it a hotrod

more comfortable? maybe on aircraft left. other than that i don't think so. esp. in the last row with the flight att. working the galley right next to you.

better avionics? maybe compared to the aircraft that you flew previously. i've watched it enough from the jumpseat to see that the avionics have nothing on the ones in the crj. and that ugly blue and black cockpit has got to go. plus all that velcro everywhere.

i hope we never get them at comair...

Let me cover a few points:

"I would hardly call it a Hotrod"
We can regularly achieve 10000 ft per min on repo flights...the VSI goes to "9900". It's slow in cruise...I get paid by the hour...my paycheck reflects it.

"More comfortable?"
When was the last time you sat in a CRJ or 757? Most of our seats have more room than most jets...the only one that beats the Dornier is the Airbus. As far as jets with 30-70 seats the Dornier is the best...that's why business travelers love our airplane. As far as the jumpseat is concern, the Dornier's jumpseat is much better than the CRJ or the 757 above the Captain's seat.

"better avionics"?
It's the Primus 2000. That speaks for it's self. The CRJ glass is NOT 3rd generation glass. The CRJ700 has the same glass as the 200, and that's 10 years old. The only glass that beats the Primus 2000 is the Smith system in the 737-800. Gulfstream, Hawker, Citation X, Embaer, Q-400, and countless other are all running Honeywell Primus. The Dornier flightdeck is very modern...looks like an Airbus except it has yokes. I'll take the nice blue color over the battleship grey of the CRJ or the ugly Boeing Brown.

All jumpseaters seem very impressed with the Dornier...they often don't expect such a little machine to be so advanced.

 

[Carl_Everett]

Let me cover a few points:
..snip..

The Dornier flightdeck is very modern...looks like an Airbus except it has yokes. I'll take the nice blue color over the battleship grey of the CRJ or the ugly Boeing Brown.

All jumpseaters seem very impressed with the Dornier...they often don't expect such a little machine to be so advanced.

And don't forget the velcro...ahhh the velcro.

Except when that rapid acceleration rate/high pitch, causes the velcro to fail and those lovely blue panels start falling down on you.

 

[surplus1]

my personal opion is it would be a step backwards in equipt and pay for cmr pilots "IF" we were to fly those ac in the future.
and the rumor i heard wasnt a merger of companies/pilots.. it was just delta having to buy the airframes as a result of terminating the ac jet agreement.. the current dojet pilots would fly for the new LCC..

OK, I understand what you say but I don't understand exactly your thinking with regard to the backward step. I also didn't expect it would be a "merger" of the companies. That would only happy if CMR bought the whole airline of ACA, not just the D-jets.
I think they have 33 of those (correct me if that's wrong).

Their contract would require the buyer to employ their pilots if the "buy" represents 40% of ACA, but I believe they have enough total airplanes to where this would be less than 40%. It's pretty close though (depending on how many J-41's they still have).

Anyway, if the airplanes came without their pilots, that would mean two things. 1) About 300 ACA pilots would be displaced overnight. 2) CMR (as the buyer) would have to come up with 300 D-jet pilots overnight or park the airplanes until they could train them, which in turn would reak havoc with Delta's schedules. I don't see that as being practical.

1) Even if the airplanes did come with zero pilots, every pilot working at comair today has a position. Those pilots are not obliged to bid new positions if they do not want to and the Company can't displace them to fly new equipment. Even if the Company could displace them or junior man them, it would leave that # of seats vacant in the CRJ's and create the same training/staffing nightmare in the CRJ's. Additionally, anyone displaced into a lower paying position involuntarily would wind up being pay protected for the bypass. It just isn't practical, so I don't see any Comair pilots being forced to fly the D-jet if they don't want to. No step backward there.

2) 33 airplanes without pilots would open 150 Captain positions and 150 FO positions, all new. Even though the D-jet is a smaller aircraft, the established CA pay rates are higher than the highest CMR FO pay rate. Since all of these new CA positions would be filled by senior CMR FO's, each would get an upgrade in status and higher pay, not lower. I don't know what ACA FO pay is for that aircraft, but regardless, current junior FO's at CMR would be either able to stay where they are or move to the D-jet with no loss of pay (pay protected). So I don't see where the lower pay idea comes from. All of that is based on our current contract at CMR.

Granted it would be "easy" to hire 300 new pilots in today's market, but given the training requirements (nobody else operates this type) you have the same start-up delays no matter where the "new" pilots come from.

For example mother D has a large pool of furloughed pilots, but none of them are D-jet qualified (or if any were its a handful). Same training problem and time. Will Delta use its money to buy 30 airframes that it can't fly for extended periods, while pilots are trained? It doesn't seem likely when they are already hemorraging money.

For those reasons I contend three things in this hypothetical senario. 1) Its a rumor and nothing happens. 2) The D-jets come with their current pilots, or they don't come at all. 3) ACA continues to remain a DCI carrier and nothing changes.

Note: It doesn't matter whether Delta places the aircraft at Comair or at any other DCI carrier. The problems of 33 new aircraft acquired overnight, without pilots, remain the same at any of the DCI carriers.

If the aircraft are acquired and come to Comair with their pilots, there are two problems. 1) What is the method of seniority integration? 2) How are the differences between the the ACA contract and the Comair contract reconciled?

In my opinion, those two problems are relatively easy to solve in a way that does not harm any Comair pilot or any of the ACA D-jet pilots. For now, I'll leave that to conjecture.

The only real problem might arise if the ACA pilots do not want to come to Comair with their equipment. I do not know enough about there contract to know if they have the right to stay at ACA and who at ACA might be furloughed if they do. It is not ACA's most junior aircraft and neither is it the most senior. Perhaps ACA wants to retain its own people for the new LCC, but I doubt they can acquire 30 narrow bodies in a heartbeat to absorb them and they are going to incur massive training problems no matter which way they go. It appears therefore that furloughs might be in the offing at ACA if the aircraft are sold and the pilots do not transfer with them.

The fact is there is no reason why ACA can't continue as a DCI carrier with the D-jet except for another of the off-the-wall Scope provisions of the Delta PWA. Whether or not that provision is truly enforceable is open to debate, but the Delta pilots think it is and the Company is not likely to start a fight with them over that issue at a time when they are asking for huge concessions in the Delta PWA. That Scope provision is likely the genisis of the "rumor" and the reason that Delta may actually be considering this acquisition.

Delta needs to protect its feed and ACA needs to get rid of redundant aircraft if they are serious about the LCC gambit. A competing LCC and a code share don't go too good together.

but hey like anything else around here.. ill belive it only after it happens.. ie Dallas is a done deal. HA.. can u believe we had pilots sell their houses here and buy in dfw..

I agree that you should believe none of what you hear and only 1/2 of what you see. That's true in all airlines. We are no different. Yeah, I guess I can believe that house bit. Pilots in general are so smart that sometimes we're stupid.

Anyway, I'm just fishing for opinions from other CMR pilots and from the ACA pilots on what they expect IF it did come to pass. If it does, I think our MEC is smart enough to do the right things. However, I don't know the attitude of the ACA pilots to something like this. I was hoping more of them would chime in and say how they feel.

On our side of the fence I don't know where you are on the list, but I don't see any Comair pilots losing anything because of this, if it does happen. On the contrary, IMO, we have much to gain, especially if the ACA guys come with the airplanes. They are good people.

"Never look a gift horse in the mouth."

 

[exphojump]

It is my understanding that provided ACAI doesn't violate the contract, DAL must assume the leases on the FRJs if they choose to end the current contract.

DAL must give at least 180 days notice.

The FRJs do not comprise more than 40% of the fleet, so crews are not required to be transfered. Since DAL would be assuming the leases it might not even be considered a sale of aircraft.

I believe if DAL decides to terminate the contract with ACAI that it would be in the interest of both parties to do it gradually over a year or so.

DAL is currently fishing for concessions. A violation of DALPA scope because of ACAI's independent bid could present a barrier to this process. Providing cash flow for a RJ LCC competitor is also counter productive.

DAL can dangle the FRJs in front of ASA in exchange for a lesser contract or in front of CMR for concessions. With the CRJ orders drying up 330+ jobs comprise a mighty big carrot. I also believe their are 19 more aircraft in Germany with Avcraft planning on resuming production. The FRJ is very efficient on <500nm routes.

A rumor but very plausible.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I too think the ACA pilots are great people, and I of course know a couple on the Do-Jo. But I had a problem with one thing that you stated:

"That would only happy if CMR bought the whole airline of ACA, not just the D-jets." (I think happy was supposed to be happen)

We all know that Comair doesn't buy anything anymore--Delta does. Comair is just a subsidiary and Delta does the buying. If Delta gets the 33 Dojos, they will figure out who flies them, and it might very well be the Comair pilots, or it could be offered to the 1060 furloughs that are still out. We don't know, but they have a qualified group of pilots that probably would take that, even at lower rates, while waiting to get back to Delta mainline. IF they got Captain slots, I bet they would. This could be another case of management trying to massage Dalpa into giving paycuts...We shall see my friend. The RJDC could not argue with this one. We have pilots who are in need of jobs and can't find one unless they give up their numbers. Who knows?

And, I would also like to say that I do not wish anything bad on any ACA pilots, and I hope they don't lose any jobs during this whole process. It is very likely that they would stay on the Dojos, and that is fine with me. I am just thinking aloud like Surplus1.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Always deferred]

Surplus1,
I appreciate your knowledge and candor regarding the issues at hand. I usually find your posts very informative and accurate.
General Lee,
Same goes for you. I like your insight and your mainline perspective.
It is a shame though that such intelligence is not always on the same side of the fence.
But thank you both for your kind comments and support towards the ACA guys. I have nothing but the utmost respect for both CMR and DAL guys as we frequently help each other get to work.

This is the first I have heard this rumor about DAL buying the Do-Jets. My initial reaction is that this is just flamebait being generated by one of the few bitter people who want to further dampen the spirits of ACA pilots, like so many have tried to do ever since the announcement of the LCC. But emotion aside there is a plausible basis for this rumor, and surplus1 has already explained it all very well.

As far as I know the ACA and CMR contracts are quite similar with subtle differences in work rules and incrementally better pay at CMR. Do-Jet skippers make more than any CMR Fo I believe but FO rates on the thing are horrible. I am pulling in $25.70/hr (give or take a few cents) on 2nd year pay.

If the FRJs do go to CMR with the option of the crews as well, leaving ACA at a time like this is a big gamble. CMR does represent a degree of stability at a well-run airline with great professional aviators, yet being a part of this new LCC airline is in itself an exciting prospect. These are the types of gambles this industry is famous for. ACA pilots have a tremendous amount of pride in our airline and in our future. I cannot see a mass migration over to CMR or ASA. Maybe a few but most people I talk to seem to want to fight this LCC war and do what they can to be on the "first list."

Nonetheless a tough decision it would be. If we were 'forced' to go with the aircraft however it would not be a lose situation. It would be a privilege to work on the Comair list and I only hope that they could welcome the ACA guys with open arms and hugs.....well...maybe not hugs.

AD

 

[General Lee]

Always Deferred,

Thanks for your kind words, amd I have enjoyed watching your Dojos ever since they were based in LGA, and I have been very impressed with the Primus 2000. (Beats the heck out of the 757 avionics package) I think the Dojo is a perfect sized replacement for the 30 seat props, and with its great climb performance and comfort inside, it is too bad that Dornier went under. I hear there are some maintenence issues though, which is too bad.

As far as what will happen with the Dojos and Comair etc, I really don't know. If you had a choice to go to Comair or go with your ACA LCC, it would be a tough choice. You are right that Comair is a stable airline and will bring a constant paycheck written by Delta of course. But, that LCC might explode like Jetblue and enjoy huge growth, or fall apart like the RDU based Midway. I guess it depends on your situation. IF you have many kids to feed and can't spend a year or two out due to a failed airline, then you may want to stay.(This, of course, is if this even happens at all---just thinking aloud again....) If you want to take a chance that might work, you may want to go for it. With the proliferation of LCC's these days, it may just work.

As far as being on the same side of the fence with guys like Surplus1, I wish that was the case, too. But, we each have our own issues that need to be worked out, and I think eventually we will all be on the same side---especially when thinks really start to turn around. As my friend Fins stated in another post, growth on both sides eventually might help to erase the damage incurred as of late. Let's hope we all get enjoy growth again--you included.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Exphojump,

In general, I agree in principle with most of what you say. For the sake of discussion, let's explore some of the points further.

It is my understanding that provided ACAI doesn't violate the contract, DAL must assume the leases on the FRJs if they choose to end the current contract. DAL must give at least 180 days notice.

That seems consistent with what I've "heard". Since neither one of us has "seen" the actual contract between Delta and ACA, the assumption seems logical. However, we must be leary of assumptions.

The FRJs do not comprise more than 40% of the fleet, so crews are not required to be transfered. Since DAL would be assuming the leases it might not even be considered a sale of aircraft.

Believing you are correct on the "40% factor", that means that Section 1.D.2. of the ACA PWA would not be triggered. Depending on what the desires of the ACA pilots might be, that could be a "good thing" or a not so good thing.

With respect to assumption of the leases not being a "sale", I disagree somewhat. In my opinion, transfer of leases equates to transfer of ownership/control and is technically the same as a sale. (Most aircraft today are not "owned" by the carriers, they are leased). I doubt it would be in the best interests of ACA pilots to argue that a lease transfer is not a sale. That could neuter most of your Section 1. I advise caution.

I believe if DAL decides to terminate the contract with ACAI that it would be in the interest of both parties to do it gradually over a year or so.

Unless the D-jet fleet and all of the pilots come as a "package", I don't see a practical way to make this "rumor" happen overnight. Therefore I agree that such a transfer is likely to be phased in over a period of time. We're on the same frequency here.

DAL is currently fishing for concessions. A violation of DALPA scope because of ACAI's independent bid could present a barrier to this process. Providing cash flow for a RJ LCC competitor is also counter productive.

Good thinking. We agree. [Presuming, of course, that it would in fact be a "violation" of DMEC Scope. That is questionable, but the subject of a different discussion].

DAL can dangle the FRJs in front of ASA in exchange for a lesser contract or in front of CMR for concessions. With the CRJ orders drying up 330+ jobs comprise a mighty big carrot. I also believe their are 19 more aircraft in Germany with Avcraft planning on resuming production. The FRJ is very efficient on <500nm routes.

I of course can't speak for ASA pilots or what they might see as a "carrot". I really can't speak for CMR pilots as a whole either, but as one of them, I just don't see this idea as a "carrot" that would make Comair pilots willing to concede anything at all. Personally, I wouldn't agree to that. So that's one NO vote.

Granted orders for new aircraft are slowing. That's a normal sequence of events (which a lot of "regional" pilots don't seem to realize). It is not logical to assume that your airline will continue to add large numbers of aircraft to the fleet indefinitely in "normal" times, let alone when the industry is under so much excess capacity stress. I think Comair pilots have known for a long time that double-digit expansion is not the "norm" in the airline industry and had to change sooner or later.

Having said that, let's look at what this hypothetical scenario really means. It is true that the addition of 33 airframes means expansion and growth for the Company, but what does it mean for the pilots currently employed?

1. If the aircraft come with their current pilots, the Company expands (a good thing), the total number of pilots increases (another good thing), but current Comair pilots have a net gain of nothing. On the contrary, depending on how seniority is integrated, some Comair pilots would inevitably suffer a net loss of seniority. That carrot wont feed the idea of concessions.

2. If the aircraft come without their current pilots, again the Company expands (a good thing), again the total number of pilot jobs increases (another good thing). Yes, there is a net gain of about 330 positions, but only 1/2 of those (145) represent any potential gain/value for current Comair pilots, i.e., the new Captain positions. The remainder would all go to "new hires" -- people that do not work here today.

I don't see Comair pilots as being willing to consider contract concessions to gain 145 upgrades, and I'm certain they would not willingly concede anything for people that do not currently work here. Therefore, the size of this alleged "carrot" is minimal.

The "carrot" would "feed" less than 10% of the present pilot population. Concessions would hurt 100% of the current population. That's a no brainer and it won't fly. IMO, if you want me to concede something (especially in a PWA as hard won as ours), then you should be prepared to offer me something of equal or greater value over the long term. This ain't it.

Comair pilots have never been in the carrot business and I have seen nothing that would indicate that they have an interest in carrots. Talk to us about a cement factory (concrete) and maybe we'll listen, but "produce" (as in carrots) is a perishable commodity. No sale.

Promises are another commodity that doesn't sell well to Comair pilots. In my opinion, and no offense intended if you are an ACA pilot (I'm just being candid), the concessions agreed to by the ACA group in an effort to "save the UAL deal", would never have gotten off the ground at Comair.

Unlike ACA, we are a subsidiary of Delta. However, that doesn't change the equation by much. All of our "eggs" are in the Delta basket (like ACA's were in the UAL basket), and in reality we are worse off than you all for we do not have the option of making independent decisions as a corporation.

As a subsidiary, if Delta tanks tomorrow (like UAL did) there is nothing we can do and we will tank along with it. The corporate entity of Comair is nothing but a shell. We can't stop our own joint bankruptcy if the owners should go bankrupt.

We have absouletely no contractual job security, for Delta (the Company not the Delta pilots), which owns us lock, stock and barrel, is not bound by our contract and can do with us or to us whatever it chooses to do. There is nothing that we could "save" by making contractual concessions.

As it turns out, there was nothing that you could "save" either, as evidenced by your current situation. Essentially, you agreed to a bunch of concessions on a promise of nothing. Nothing is exactly what you got so far. (Thank goodness the concessions don't take effect without a "UAL deal"). Even if you did "get the deal", honestly, the logic of why ACA pilots (SKYW and ARW pilots too) embrace the concept that they should pay for it escapes me totally.

In the world of "What IF's" you really had nothing to gain from those concessions. Therefore, I see them as having been totally unnecessary.

I have no crystal ball and no real knowledge of what is going to happen, but I would not be surprised (in spite of your LCC announcement), if you still strike a deal with United and postpone the LCC.

While the Bain group may have embraced the myth of Mesa's low bid takeover of the regional world, the fact is that it will take United years (anybody's guess how many) to replace what it will lose if ACA really goes independent. That outweighs by miles any gains they might have made from the ACA pilot concessions.

In the balance of things, market forces will ultimately determine what happens, not pilot concessions from small airlines like Comair and ACA. The problems are in the "legacy carriers" and they are endemic. They can't be solved by pilot concessions at any regional carrier.

I admire the gutsy stand of ACA management. Yes, its risky, but so is an unprofitable contract with UAL. I only wish that the pilot groups at ACA, ARW and SKYW had the wisdom to stand their ground in the way that ACA management has. It is true that ACAI may become "unprofitable" if the LCC venture doesn't work, but it is equally true that ACAI would become unprofitable by agreeing to a lousy deal with UAL. Pilot concessions won't change either.

Just my opinions and probably all wrong. Thanks for your reply.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

I too think the ACA pilots are great people, and I of course know a couple on the Do-Jo. But I had a problem with one thing that you stated:

"That would only happy if CMR bought the whole airline of ACA, not just the D-jets." (I think happy was supposed to be happen)

General you are correct, "happy" was supposed to be happen and referred only to a merger, which does not apply in this hypothetical situation.

We all know that Comair doesn't buy anything anymore--Delta does. Comair is just a subsidiary and Delta does the buying.

I agree that Delta is in control. But be careful how you make the link. That's the problem with subsidiaries. They "are" when it's convenient (as in your reference) and they "are not" when it's not convenient (as in my reference).

It would not be convenient in this case for Delta to "buy" anything. That would require the creation of yet another subsidiary or worse, trigger a merger. Yes, they could, but is that practical? I think not. Therefore, Comair (or ASA or Song) would become the "buyer". We all know that the final decisions will be made in the Delta Board Room, but the technical differences associated with subsidiaries are the reason for their existence. Delta will use whichever subsidiary it wants to and make the acquisition through that subsidiary (if it happens). On paper, the "buyer" will be Comair (if that is Delta's choice), not Delta.

There are reasons for these corporate shell games and sometimes the reasons are very important. For example, it Delta wanted to acquire all of ACA, you can bet your bottom dollar that the "buyer" would not be Delta. Delta would use one of its subsidiaries to make the purchase. Why? Because a buy by Delta itself would trigger a merger (ACA contract) with Delta, and that ain't going to happen. You'll have to agree that a merger between ACA and CMR or ACA and ASA, would be very different from a merger between DAL and ACA.

Sometimes the nuances of these things are subtle and escape us.

If Delta gets the 33 Dojos, they will figure out who flies them, and it might very well be the Comair pilots, or it could be offered to the 1060 furloughs that are still out. We don't know, but they have a qualified group of pilots that probably would take that, even at lower rates, while waiting to get back to Delta mainline. IF they got Captain slots, I bet they would. This could be another case of management trying to massage Dalpa into giving paycuts...We shall see my friend. The RJDC could not argue with this one. We have pilots who are in need of jobs and can't find one unless they give up their numbers. Who knows?

All that is possible and I agree. However, I don't think its practical, for the reasons I stated in the previous post. Having to train that many pilots into a new type is a big problem, no matter where Delta decides to place the aircraft.

Sure they could create a new subsidiary and hire the Delta furloughees. It would be nice for those guys, but I think it would be prohibitively expensive for the Company. Perhaps I'm wrong. Another more simple thing they could do is attachh it to one of the present subsidiaries, and mandate that the vacancies be filled by the furloughed Delta pilots. That however, would present huge problems of seniority and contractual difficulties with all the subsidiaries (except maybe Song). It would become Delta's version of Jets for Jobs. You can only imagine the upheaval that a jets for jobs program would trigger in the Delta system. Trust me on that. Delta management isn't going to risk that.

I think its great that you're defending the furloughd guys, but you're not the Company. The Company isn't going to do anything to hurt itself to help those guys. If that were the case, they wouldn't be furloughed now.

However it's done, IF it is done, I just hope that we don't hurt anyone else in the process.

 

[surplus1]

If the FRJs do go to CMR with the option of the crews as well, leaving ACA at a time like this is a big gamble. CMR does represent a degree of stability at a well-run airline with great professional aviators, yet being a part of this new LCC airline is in itself an exciting prospect. These are the types of gambles this industry is famous for. ACA pilots have a tremendous amount of pride in our airline and in our future. I cannot see a mass migration over to CMR or ASA. Maybe a few but most people I talk to seem to want to fight this LCC war and do what they can to be on the "first list."

One thing I believe I can tell you for sure is that every Comair pilot that was here before the purchase of our airline by Delta, shares an understanding of your desire to "go on your own" and try to make it. We would have been more than happy to move on and leave the widgets to their own devices. But, it wasn't to be and it didn't happen. Nothing we can do about that any more.

Just the same, we can understand why it's a hard choice and why you would want to stay with your own.

It would be a privilege to work on the Comair list and I only hope that they could welcome the ACA guys with open arms and hugs.....well...maybe not hugs. AD

Thank you for the kind words. I can't promise hugs either, but IF this happens, I hope you would all come at once with your aircraft and I'm pretty sure that you would be welcomed here, indeed with open arms.

We wish you success with your new venture.

 

[Patriot328]

Well if y'all do get em, just make sure your parts supplier is good!


It is a shame the plane is not more reliable than it is. It is the best <500mi bird out there. And yes, it is more comfortable, better avionics, and talking to our pilots that have flown both birds, it's much more fun to fly than the CRJ.. It is annoying having to go find all the lose items you may have left sitting next to you before take off. Everything goes sliding back in the cockpit when you shove those power levers forward and pitch it up to 20deg to keep it under 200kts on initial climbout.

Winter time is comin.. can't wait for those 8,000fpm days again.. sucks only doing 4-5,000 fpm in the turn to 090 on the rocket 1 dept.


As for them heading to DelComAsa, I'm not even going to worry about it until the announcement comes out. Nothing I can do about it right now.

 

[embraerjetpilot]

Gotta say it...cant resist..

Dork JEt

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I agree with you again on some parts. I think the possible "merger" between Delta and ACA (CVG) would not happen. But, Delta could create another DCI and staff it with whoever they chose, and the amount available pilots who are furloughed is staggering. Who knows what they could offer? My friends who are furloughed currently think they would like the opportunity to fly "left seat" in those planes, if offered the chance. Now, again I say that I am only "wondering aloud"---and I do not wish any ACA pilot any harm---and I again wouldn't be saddened if they were to continue flying for DCI. I wouldn't wish anyone out of a job. Since the Dojos are currently flying for Delta and the DCI, I would think that Delta, not Dalpa, would have the final say in who flies them IF ACA has to give them up. I still think Delta might offer some of the seats to the furloughs in an effort to get more concessions. Hey, it could happen. Maybe. I hope it does for the 1060 guys still out.(As long as the ACA guys aren't affected)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ryjacks]

General,
As for thinking aloud, right now it would seem feasible to take the 33 328s to DAL, but when things turn around now what do you do?

Keep them at DAL? Or Give them to whomever wants them and now DAL has paid for numerous training cycles in just a couple of years.

Also, what is the deal with furloughed pilots wanting the "left seat?" They already have a mainline job and I quote you "a flying job is better than umemployment line." So why not just be an FO for 3 years and be happy.

I doubt DAL will force ACA out of the contract seeing they have larger fish to fry at this time.

Good luck ACA.

RJ

 

[Patriot328]

Gotta say it...cant resist..

Dork JEt

ooooo I'm insulted...

 

[General Lee]

ryjacks,

I know Delta has more important problems to solve right now, but I was commenting on what would happen if ACA were to "give up " the leases on the 33 Dojos if the contract was broken due to the new LCC. I honestly don't know what will happen, and you are probably right about the excessive amount of training cycles. But, Delta sometimes seems not to care much about the training issues and costs.....I don't know what will happen.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DarnNearaJet]

You've got to love this board. Someone starts a rumour about the remote possibility of ACA someday letting go of the 328's and suddenly 2 pages of conjecture appear.

Anyway .. ahem .. being typed in both aircraft I would like to say the following ...

328 advantages:

1) Better radar (it's like having 2 separate dishes.)
2) More fun to fly in the pattern and take-off.
3) VNAV
4) FADEC
5) Slightly better FMS
6) Much simpler systems (the entire electrical schematic is overhead.)
7) More secret hiding places for porn.
8) The hamburger door!

328 disadvantages:
1) Uncomfortable cockpit seats (you feel the metal after the fifth leg of the day)
2) Short hops = many legs/harder work/no time to read the McPaper.
3) Velcro everwhere (but see #7 above)
4) If you push/pull anything too hard it breaks off in your hands (it's a throwaway airplane.)
5) Weight limits
6) 5 CRT's instead of 6 means someone loses their map display when you need to look at a systems page.
7) You have to shut down the APU when you leave the a/c. (That's not so bad, they're usually deferred.)
8) The packs suck in the summer.
9) The avionics may be more advanced but they also have less processing power (be prepared to lose a screen, maybe see a big red X for a second or two, when you change displays.)
10) No flight spoilers
11) No T-R's
12) No buffer between the cockpit and the first row of pax (open the door and there they are, nice and cosy!)
13) Doesn't handle turbulence as well as the CRJ.
14) It's a MX pig!
15) Can't move the cockpit seats back far enough.
16) Can't write in the logbook when people are boarding because one pax climbing the steps is enough to make the whole a/c rock.
17) That cockpit lighting! It's more GM than Mercedes. The map light shines perfectly on the back of your head, leaving your lap in the dark.
18) No clipboard on the yoke, instead it's off to the side and drops anything you stick in that little plastic "clip."
17) Handles like a big top-heavy 172 on the ground (watch those turns off the runway.)
20) The hamburger door (some ramper always yells up at you "three more checked bags!")

 

[comrcap]

My opinion is to offer DOH to the DO Jet pilots that come from ACA on the Comair list.
DALPA would never offer this to the Cmr/ASA group, but that is no surprise. And General Lee, No, furloughed pilots at DAL don't have special rights at "wholly owned subsidiaries".
Delta intends to grow DCI and SONG, while Mainline shrinks. Soon the smallest A/C at Mainline will be the 737-800. Domestic service will be predominantly RJ's. Get your head out of your B*tt! DCI IS DELTA! As much as Mainline. Profit drives capital spending and we took 33 A/C at Comair during a FISCAL CRISIS!
DUHHHH! Can't see the forest through the trees, huh.