Abx?

[xspud]

What about T.H. in Fla. Didn't he downbid to 767FO?

Per example 1 in my post, anyone can bid from any seat to 767FO because it's a "new" aircraft. Per example 2, a Captain could bid 767FO (or even DC8/DC9FO) if they were being surplused.

 

[xspud]

It would be a stretch for management to try and say this new domicile would not affect manning levels but then again look at their track record.

Sorta like, just because the contract says you "will meet to determine the changes necessary in this article to facilitate such a move" doesn't actually mean that you have to negotiate or anything (A.14,S.F Domicile Outside The Contiguous United States).

When I first heard about this Japan domicile idea, I pulled out the contract, read that paragraph and thought, "Well that's pretty clear." Wrong again!

 

[freighthound]

xspud is correct. When surplused you can go to any seat where you are senior to someone in that seat. He is also correct concerning the 767 F/O seat. Since it is still considered a new plane anyone senior enough to be awarded a 767 F/O bid will be awarded that bid, that includes Captains of any of the airplanes. In the past when any upgrade vacancies have not been bid the company has brought new hires into those positions. It was common years ago for DC-8 F/O vacancies to not be bid and the company would bring new hires into these seats. These individuals were never allowed to bid back to the DC-9. The company has the option to assign crewmembers in reverse order of seniority to fill unbid vacancies instead of hiring. They could use this method to fill 767 F/0 seats with DC-9 F/O's thereby not exposing themselves to having DC-8 F/O upgrading and leaving the DC-8 undermanned.

 

[ABXbooger]

latest "news" has the Japan domicile out.

Earnings were good, hopefully more good news on the way.

 

[LarryinTN]

Sorta like, just because the contract says you "will meet to determine the changes necessary in this article to facilitate such a move" doesn't actually mean that you have to negotiate or anything (A.14,S.F Domicile Outside The Contiguous United States).

We have presented the company with a section six opener on the foreign domicile. I wouldn't be surprised if that scares them away from the idea of creating the domicile in Japan.

 

[freighthound]

One thing to keep in mind is that ABX is a public company and as much as management would like to think they own ABX they are really just employees like everyone else. This ANA deal could be worth a lot of money to ABX and I don't think some of the big share holders would take kindly to this deal falling through because flight management wanted to show the pilots who is boss. As a group we want this to happen we just want to ensure that the quality of life for everyone is protected.

 

[Jurassic Jet]

latest "news" has the Japan domicile out.

Source??

 

[ABXbooger]

union meeting the other night

 

[nitefr8dog]

you cannot always down bid to the 767 example, if you bid DC9 captain after the 767 showed up you cannot bid 767 fo. IF you upgraded to DC8 or DC9 captain before the 767 came on the property then you can down bid to 767 fo. P.M. did it in ILN.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Any truth that Astar did not get one aircraft into ILN last nite?

 

[hvydriver]

I don't know if we did or not. On an up note for me, they sent us to MSY from DAY (I got a bonus van ride from the Hoot to DAY to bring the plane out) and I got to stay in the French Quarter. Time to go get some Cajun cookin'!

 

[nitefr8dog]

I just saw a company E mail saying due to the weather in ILN the last two days all 4 day weekend trips will fly as 3 day trips on Fri. It also said Astar did not have any aircraft get into ILN last nite! not good!

 

[AV8OR]

I just saw a company E mail saying due to the weather in ILN the last two days all 4 day weekend trips will fly as 3 day trips on Fri. It also said Astar did not have any aircraft get into ILN last nite! not good!

Here's what the company's communication was to us at Astar about the events of the last two days........

chirp chirp chirp chirp

I'm tellin ya, they (DHL and AStar) coud care less. Heck, yall know, they've decided to not even provide overnight freight to the entire state of Montana. What's that tell ya about their concern with the customer's opinion.

That's what's "not good".

 

[erichartmann]

If a junior pilot was "forced" into the 767 Japan, why couldn't he bid out at first opportunity? He didn't bid it, did he?

And eric, come on, what is up your a$$? the first mention of anyone senior having to deal with a junior person and you snap! Oh, I'm sorry you did make this company the great one it is. We should all have to suffer so you can do what you want.

The company is going to screw this up and blame us. Investors should be very seriously looking at our management and ask them why this didn't happen.

A junior pilot "forced" into Japan is unlikely to be able to bid out. Bidding out requires an existing vacancy or a surplus in the domicile.

Nothing is up my a$$. Snapped? Not at all. Bitter's very username, to say nothing of the tenor and content of some of his posts could easily lead one to believe he expects a senior pilot to "fall on his sword" to protect the junior. Bitter, in another post, has indicated that was not his intent. Okay, I apologize for my apparently unwarranted assumption in this case.

Someone else suggested the solution would be a downbid. A downbid would not work in this case. Consider that a voluntary downbid would require a vacancy to exist to downbid into. Any other scenario would entail a junior crewmember in one seat displacing another crewmember in another seat/aircraft type. At some point, if followed to it’s logical conclusion, this could eventually mean the most junior crewmember in the company would be forced to accept the assignment the first downbidding crewmember did not want, or quit. Not exactly a situation I think we should want to foster.

Just as an aside, to my certain knowledge the union attempted to negotiate downbid language for our contract during at least two contracts. Management simply was not interested, and the union did not have sufficient leverage to get it done. It certainly wasn't a strike issue, and there was nothing the union as a whole wished to concede (based on surveys) to get a downbid. Please bear in mind that to our management, when you offer any type of concession to achieve a goal they see that as a weakness to be exploited to the max and perhaps beyond. They will keep demanding more and more.

The solution to this problem is to recognize we are negotiating from a position of strength. Sure, we want the growth, but so does management. They are faced with the need to find work for newly converted aircraft that DHL has indicated they don’t really want, and certainly don’t want at the price Hete feels he needs to charge. Also, forcing crewmembers into a foreign domicile would be counter productive. After all, ABX needs to succeed in this endeavor if we attempt it. The forced crews are unlikely to provide the level of service reliability needed. We therefore have the leverage we need to negotiate language that protects us and makes this deal acceptable. However, we do need to be careful we don't kill the deal.

 

[hvydriver]

>It also said Astar did not have any aircraft get into ILN last nite!< There was a handful that did. I think around 4.

 

[erichartmann]

Ahhhh. There's the good ole Teamsters 1224 mentality that we all know and love. Me me me me me me me. I got mine. Screw you.

Contrast this against the last sentence in the latest email from the union that is pleading:

"Above all, when it comes times to ratify this agreement, remember that your decisions will affect not only the lives of you and your family but by everyone junior to you on the seniority list."

Yeah. Right. 1224 members thinking about what's best for the entire membership (especially those junior to them) and the future membership beyond what they can get for themselves right now. uke: :laugh:

Now that's funny right there....I don't care who ya'are.

This is the farthest thing from a "union" I have ever seen.

The senior guys probably don't want to bid it until they can get it guaranteed in writing that they can go over there for 30 days, get paid for 15 days of overtime, and then come home and fly more overtime on their days off out of their domicile.

Spare me the rhetoric. I am so not interested that even if I could clear $1,000,000 for a year in a Japan domicile I wouldn’t go.

You are probably one of the those who want to ban open flying. I suggest you go look at a few court cases. Perhaps the most noteworthy is the AA vs. APA case a few years ago. You might even remember it; the one where the judge found against the union even though the union’s leadership publicly denounced what the company was calling an illegal job action. Management went to court with stats to show that sick calls had taken a sudden and dramatic uptick based on historical norms. The judge found that to be concerted illegal action on the part of the membership even if there had been no conspiracy or plan to engage in the action. The judge held the membership is the union, thus using a union slogan (U are the U in Union) against the union. The fine was more than the APA had in its treasury. If you think for one moment our management doesn’t have the stats on open time you have your head firmly planted. Stop bidding it and we’ll be in court in a New York second. Management will seek damages and a fine that will bankrupt the local and force a large, painfull assessment against the members.

Finally, getting rid of open time would produce a one time benefit for a small percentage of the group, and cost all of us in the long run. Management would want to regain the lost productivity. Either we would all work harder, or we would all be expected to take pay cuts so a few could make captain, and few could get off reserve.

 

[LarryinTN]

There was a handful that did. I think around 4.

If they did, they didn't show up on flightaware.com No DHL arrivals since just after noon on Wednesday.

 

[Jurassic Jet]

You are probably one of the those who want to ban open flying. I suggest you go look at a few court cases. Perhaps the most noteworthy is the AA vs. APA case a few years ago. You might even remember it; the one where the judge found against the union even though the union’s leadership publicly denounced what the company was calling an illegal job action. Management went to court with stats to show that sick calls had taken a sudden and dramatic uptick based on historical norms. The judge found that to be concerted illegal action on the part of the membership even if there had been no conspiracy or plan to engage in the action. The judge held the membership is the union, thus using a union slogan (U are the U in Union) against the union. The fine was more than the APA had in its treasury. If you think for one moment our management doesn’t have the stats on open time you have your head firmly planted. Stop bidding it and we’ll be in court in a New York second. Management will seek damages and a fine that will bankrupt the local and force a large, painfull assessment against the members.

Finally, getting rid of open time would produce a one time benefit for a small percentage of the group, and cost all of us in the long run. Management would want to regain the lost productivity. Either we would all work harder, or we would all be expected to take pay cuts so a few could make captain, and few could get off reserve.

uke: uke: uke: uke: uke: uke:

Same ole "Nifty 50" argument that's so old. Tell it to a UPS or FDX pilot. We could take a few lessons in "Unity" from those groups.

BTW, I don't thing you will find anything in my original post saying I want OPF banned.

I just wonder what it would actually look like around here though if we didn't have such greed at the top. We've got 767 CA's routinely getting 15-19 days of OPF every month. Same on the 9. 1 Person doing the job of two. Don't preach about the cost savings to the company. I realize it would not be a one for one due to some cost savings.

How many people would be on our seniority list if this was not the case? Say people were not such pigs and bid only 3-4 days a month? Would the junior captain on the 9 be a 14 year veteran of the company???? Would we still have guys furloughed?

Now just tack on another 5 years thanks to age 65. Hell, the way things are going around here, it won't be too long and they won't be able to find anyone under age 60 to sit in the right seat and keep the geezer awake in the left seat.

 

[Bitter]

WOW......Eric this is called SENIORITY. Same thing you are preaching, In your other posts....

If no one bid on a proposed domicile in Japan, what do you think the most junior crewmember would have to do.......Yep, take it or quit. The very thing you seem to be against!!! Do you now propose a senior crewmember fall on his sword......!!

make up your mind......!

 

[erichartmann]

spare me!

uke: uke: uke: uke: uke: uke:

Same ole "Nifty 50" argument that's so old. Tell it to a UPS or FDX pilot. We could take a few lessons in "Unity" from those groups.

BTW, I don't thing you will find anything in my original post saying I want OPF banned.

I just wonder what it would actually look like around here though if we didn't have such greed at the top. We've got 767 CA's routinely getting 15-19 days of OPF every month. Same on the 9. 1 Person doing the job of two. Don't preach about the cost savings to the company. I realize it would not be a one for one due to some cost savings.

How many people would be on our seniority list if this was not the case? Say people were not such pigs and bid only 3-4 days a month? Would the junior captain on the 9 be a 14 year veteran of the company???? Would we still have guys furloughed?

Now just tack on another 5 years thanks to age 65. Hell, the way things are going around here, it won't be too long and they won't be able to find anyone under age 60 to sit in the right seat and keep the geezer awake in the left seat.

I'd be interested to see how that could be done every month.