ABX to compete with DHL?

[hvydriver]

Dear Heavy,

Although I do not speak for our E-Board, I am sure that they will take every opportunity to meet the Astar Pilot Union Reps in the middle. Perhaps the previous requests for seniority lists came at a busy time with our contract negotiations and all. I know that you guys have changed Union Reps in the recent past so perhaps it might take some time to reestablish the working relationship we had with your previous representatives.

CS,

From my experience, each time we've gotten a list ready since 2003 it's been because you're leadership (past and present) has stated that a merger was imminent. We've never heard anything concrete till Dasburg's letter.

 

[Clipperskip]

??

Just an observer in all this, but wouldn't 1224 be losing more than it's shirt if a merger took place? Which Union would be the winner in all this? I'd bet 1224 is wishing we had gone with them in 2000 instead of with 747. Either way, a well handled merger (ie NOT TWA/AA), if it were to happen, is always great for some, miserable for others, and hopefully "ok" for most. Good luck!

Help me to understand why you think 1224 would be losing their shirts in this merger. Why would it have been better for 1224 to merge the groups in 2003 (I'm assuming that is what you meant and not 2000). They have through attrition reduced the size of the pilot group but still slightly outnumber the Astar group. Am I wrong?

 

[b707guy]

Help me to understand why you think 1224 would be losing their shirts in this merger. Why would it have been better for 1224 to merge the groups in 2003 (I'm assuming that is what you meant and not 2000). They have through attrition reduced the size of the pilot group but still slightly outnumber the Astar group. Am I wrong?

Maybe all that's happening is that I'm making too many assumptions! I was guessing that in the event of a merger, ASTAR's ALPA would be the dominant Union in the end and that ABEx's IBT 1224 would lose out, which if true, might be part of why they aren't playing well (per hvydriver's response to shooter earlier today).

The 2000 reference was to my company going with IBT 747 back then. I don't know the specifics, but 1224 was apparently available to us at the time. Anyway, I believe 1224 represents only ABEx? If a merger were to happen, and ALPA prevailed, where would that leave 1224? It's neither a rhetorical nor a smartass question - I'm asking because I don't know .

As I mentioned, I'm a bit of an outsider in this particular discussion, but it's of interest to me because our sister company, Cappy, just voted in ALPA, while we're IBT. No apparent intent on our parent company's part to merge us (quite different operations focus), but who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of bean counting managers?

 

[GoABX]

The natural inclination is for the ABX guys to lean IBT and Astar to align with ALPA. But I hope the Astar individuals take a hard look at the Teamsters. I have never in the last 10 years heard anyone rave about how great ALPA is or all the great things they have done for them. Contrarily, I have heard countless horror stories and going ALPA scares the crap out of me.

The representation vote is separate from seniority integration. Keeping ALPA does not mean an Astar windfall and the same is true if the IBT stays.

Most of the ABX guys are pretty happy with Teamsters and that should say something. Plus, many people do not appreciate the power of 1/2 of the drivers being Teamsters. If we strike, the freight doesn't move even if they bring in scab pilots. The same can not be said if the pilots were ALPA. Afterall didn't ALPA cross the picket of another striking union? ala NWA.

In either case expect to be lied to. One union will lose everything and the other will double in size, so there is a lot at stake for both unions.

 

[b707guy]

One union will lose everything and the other will double in size, so there is a lot at stake for both unions.

That's kind of what I was getting at. Local 747 represents quite a few companies, including us. Am I correct in the impression that 1224 represents only ABX at the moment? If so, and if IBT loses the battle should the companies merge, where would that leave the local?

I agree wholeheartedly that IBT would be the lesser of two evils compared with ALPA. Some of our group have expressed an interest in switching to ALPA, but I don't think that would be in our best interest. Look at Emery. We'd have a great contract right up to the day the doors closed. Others in our group want to remain IBT, but maybe under a different local. It's good to hear that the ABX group is generally happy with 1224, as I've heard from other sources. Just thinkin' out loud...

 

[GoABX]

B707guy (and Astar guys),

Funny you should mention Emery. I suggest you get the previous MEC chairman to speak to your group. He did for us. He will scare the crap out of you when you learned about all the behind closed doors arm twisting & threats ALPA national did to their own union people.

 

[LarryinTN]

Am I correct in the impression that 1224 represents only ABX at the moment? If so, and if IBT loses the battle should the companies merge, where would that leave the local?

Local 1224 is ABX pilots. If the ABX pilots became ALPA there'd be nothing left of Local 1224 except the few office employees and two attorneys that we currently employ. That's what we like about being IBT. We are our union. Our actions are not being controlled by National.

 

[rotor&wing]

B707guy (and Astar guys),

Funny you should mention Emery. I suggest you get the previous MEC chairman to speak to your group. He did for us. He will scare the crap out of you when you learned about all the behind closed doors arm twisting & threats ALPA national did to their own union people.

that's funny, I had a few UPS pilots tell me the same thing about Teamsters when they had them as their original representation.........

kinda reminds you of the old Who song:

"Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss..."

 

[freighthound]

that's funny, I had a few UPS pilots tell me the same thing about Teamsters when they had them as their original representation.........

kinda reminds you of the old Who song:

"Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss..."

The biggest difference here is at least the Teamsters didn't work to get rid of the UPS pilots jobs. Unfortunately ALPA can't say the same where Emery is concerned.

 

[abxaviator]

Both unions have positives and negatives, and both will have good stories and horror stories. To me, the deciding factor is that if it came to a strike, with ALPA, we would have no support in way of others honoring the lines; with Teamsters, we support and have the support of thousands of other DHL employees. That in itself is a HUGE deal and the company(ies) are well aware of that.

 

[hvydriver]

The biggest difference here is at least the Teamsters didn't work to get rid of the UPS pilots jobs. Unfortunately ALPA can't say the same where Emery is concerned.

I think you're misinformed here. I'm no huge fan of ALPA, but they didn't "get rid" of Emery jobs. The Emery pilots started a "call the FAA" program because of their maintenance being so shoddy. The Feds started digging, and Emery turned in their operating certificate. (That's the basics, as I remember.) ALPA can't protect jobs at a company that "turns in it's wings". Now the AA/TWA thing was a whole different deal. The MEC listened to National and gave up their Scope rights, as they were about to go bankrupt. As in cease operations bankrupt. They took the chance of receiving mercy from AA in the purchase deal. AA took them to the cleaners in the integration. Bad advice? Maybe. I don't know. Are there any ex-TWA guys following this thread that would care to rehash what happened? Or correct any statements I've made here that might be wrong?

 

[erwaz]

I am an Astar guy. I would suggest to all on both sides of the fence to keep an open mind when selecting Union representation. All Unions have their pros and cons. To simpley align your self with your current representation ,"JUST BECAUSE" is not smart. Both groups should listen to each Union's sales pitch and then select the best that will represent the intrests of us all. One group or the other will not get an egde up on a merger of seniority lists just because their Union will be the final representation. Unions by law can get involved which is why each group must flip the bill for themselves. KEEP AN OPEN MIND!!!

 

[Cargoav8or]

Both unions have positives and negatives, and both will have good stories and horror stories. To me, the deciding factor is that if it came to a strike, with ALPA, we would have no support in way of others honoring the lines; with Teamsters, we support and have the support of thousands of other DHL employees. That in itself is a HUGE deal and the company(ies) are well aware of that.

You have to admit that's purtty attractive. Can you say for sure that the Teamsters would not honor other unions lines? What does that do for the GCPA? Would the Teamsters cross the lines of other unions around the world for the benefit of themselves? If that's the case it doesn't say much for the leadership, honor or belief in organized labor if one union is willing to stab another in the back. If I am to become a Teamster I want to know that they will back any union, regardless of affiliation, to stand up for the rights of all workers.

 

[fodc8]

Did anyone from 1224 come to any of the public activities Astar held in ILN or Miami????? Other Airlines showed up to give support.

 

[WickedPissa]

Astar has made the offer to buy out ABX, including everything down to the pencils on the desk. (the offer was for ALL of the ABX stock)

Astar has and still flies charters. Astar has operated the Pacific Rim, North, Central and South America, Europe and the Middle East. The ANA contract is with ABX appears to be a lucritive venture, and I would bet DHL would be interested in getting involved with it also.

Time will tell.

I guess you can say the money is in the Rim jobs.