ABX to compete with DHL?

[hvydriver]

Dear Heavy,

Although I do not speak for our E-Board, I am sure that they will take every opportunity to meet the Astar Pilot Union Reps in the middle. Perhaps the previous requests for seniority lists came at a busy time with our contract negotiations and all. I know that you guys have changed Union Reps in the recent past so perhaps it might take some time to reestablish the working relationship we had with your previous representatives.

CS,

From my experience, each time we've gotten a list ready since 2003 it's been because you're leadership (past and present) has stated that a merger was imminent. We've never heard anything concrete till Dasburg's letter.

 

[Clipperskip]

??

Just an observer in all this, but wouldn't 1224 be losing more than it's shirt if a merger took place? Which Union would be the winner in all this? I'd bet 1224 is wishing we had gone with them in 2000 instead of with 747. Either way, a well handled merger (ie NOT TWA/AA), if it were to happen, is always great for some, miserable for others, and hopefully "ok" for most. Good luck!

Help me to understand why you think 1224 would be losing their shirts in this merger. Why would it have been better for 1224 to merge the groups in 2003 (I'm assuming that is what you meant and not 2000). They have through attrition reduced the size of the pilot group but still slightly outnumber the Astar group. Am I wrong?

 

[b707guy]

Help me to understand why you think 1224 would be losing their shirts in this merger. Why would it have been better for 1224 to merge the groups in 2003 (I'm assuming that is what you meant and not 2000). They have through attrition reduced the size of the pilot group but still slightly outnumber the Astar group. Am I wrong?

Maybe all that's happening is that I'm making too many assumptions! I was guessing that in the event of a merger, ASTAR's ALPA would be the dominant Union in the end and that ABEx's IBT 1224 would lose out, which if true, might be part of why they aren't playing well (per hvydriver's response to shooter earlier today).

The 2000 reference was to my company going with IBT 747 back then. I don't know the specifics, but 1224 was apparently available to us at the time. Anyway, I believe 1224 represents only ABEx? If a merger were to happen, and ALPA prevailed, where would that leave 1224? It's neither a rhetorical nor a smartass question - I'm asking because I don't know .

As I mentioned, I'm a bit of an outsider in this particular discussion, but it's of interest to me because our sister company, Cappy, just voted in ALPA, while we're IBT. No apparent intent on our parent company's part to merge us (quite different operations focus), but who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of bean counting managers?

 

[GoABX]

The natural inclination is for the ABX guys to lean IBT and Astar to align with ALPA. But I hope the Astar individuals take a hard look at the Teamsters. I have never in the last 10 years heard anyone rave about how great ALPA is or all the great things they have done for them. Contrarily, I have heard countless horror stories and going ALPA scares the crap out of me.

The representation vote is separate from seniority integration. Keeping ALPA does not mean an Astar windfall and the same is true if the IBT stays.

Most of the ABX guys are pretty happy with Teamsters and that should say something. Plus, many people do not appreciate the power of 1/2 of the drivers being Teamsters. If we strike, the freight doesn't move even if they bring in scab pilots. The same can not be said if the pilots were ALPA. Afterall didn't ALPA cross the picket of another striking union? ala NWA.

In either case expect to be lied to. One union will lose everything and the other will double in size, so there is a lot at stake for both unions.

 

[b707guy]

One union will lose everything and the other will double in size, so there is a lot at stake for both unions.

That's kind of what I was getting at. Local 747 represents quite a few companies, including us. Am I correct in the impression that 1224 represents only ABX at the moment? If so, and if IBT loses the battle should the companies merge, where would that leave the local?

I agree wholeheartedly that IBT would be the lesser of two evils compared with ALPA. Some of our group have expressed an interest in switching to ALPA, but I don't think that would be in our best interest. Look at Emery. We'd have a great contract right up to the day the doors closed. Others in our group want to remain IBT, but maybe under a different local. It's good to hear that the ABX group is generally happy with 1224, as I've heard from other sources. Just thinkin' out loud...

 

[GoABX]

B707guy (and Astar guys),

Funny you should mention Emery. I suggest you get the previous MEC chairman to speak to your group. He did for us. He will scare the crap out of you when you learned about all the behind closed doors arm twisting & threats ALPA national did to their own union people.

 

[LarryinTN]

Am I correct in the impression that 1224 represents only ABX at the moment? If so, and if IBT loses the battle should the companies merge, where would that leave the local?

Local 1224 is ABX pilots. If the ABX pilots became ALPA there'd be nothing left of Local 1224 except the few office employees and two attorneys that we currently employ. That's what we like about being IBT. We are our union. Our actions are not being controlled by National.

 

[rotor&wing]

B707guy (and Astar guys),

Funny you should mention Emery. I suggest you get the previous MEC chairman to speak to your group. He did for us. He will scare the crap out of you when you learned about all the behind closed doors arm twisting & threats ALPA national did to their own union people.

that's funny, I had a few UPS pilots tell me the same thing about Teamsters when they had them as their original representation.........

kinda reminds you of the old Who song:

"Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss..."

 

[freighthound]

that's funny, I had a few UPS pilots tell me the same thing about Teamsters when they had them as their original representation.........

kinda reminds you of the old Who song:

"Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss..."

The biggest difference here is at least the Teamsters didn't work to get rid of the UPS pilots jobs. Unfortunately ALPA can't say the same where Emery is concerned.

 

[abxaviator]

Both unions have positives and negatives, and both will have good stories and horror stories. To me, the deciding factor is that if it came to a strike, with ALPA, we would have no support in way of others honoring the lines; with Teamsters, we support and have the support of thousands of other DHL employees. That in itself is a HUGE deal and the company(ies) are well aware of that.

 

[hvydriver]

The biggest difference here is at least the Teamsters didn't work to get rid of the UPS pilots jobs. Unfortunately ALPA can't say the same where Emery is concerned.

I think you're misinformed here. I'm no huge fan of ALPA, but they didn't "get rid" of Emery jobs. The Emery pilots started a "call the FAA" program because of their maintenance being so shoddy. The Feds started digging, and Emery turned in their operating certificate. (That's the basics, as I remember.) ALPA can't protect jobs at a company that "turns in it's wings". Now the AA/TWA thing was a whole different deal. The MEC listened to National and gave up their Scope rights, as they were about to go bankrupt. As in cease operations bankrupt. They took the chance of receiving mercy from AA in the purchase deal. AA took them to the cleaners in the integration. Bad advice? Maybe. I don't know. Are there any ex-TWA guys following this thread that would care to rehash what happened? Or correct any statements I've made here that might be wrong?

 

[erwaz]

I am an Astar guy. I would suggest to all on both sides of the fence to keep an open mind when selecting Union representation. All Unions have their pros and cons. To simpley align your self with your current representation ,"JUST BECAUSE" is not smart. Both groups should listen to each Union's sales pitch and then select the best that will represent the intrests of us all. One group or the other will not get an egde up on a merger of seniority lists just because their Union will be the final representation. Unions by law can get involved which is why each group must flip the bill for themselves. KEEP AN OPEN MIND!!!

 

[Cargoav8or]

Both unions have positives and negatives, and both will have good stories and horror stories. To me, the deciding factor is that if it came to a strike, with ALPA, we would have no support in way of others honoring the lines; with Teamsters, we support and have the support of thousands of other DHL employees. That in itself is a HUGE deal and the company(ies) are well aware of that.

You have to admit that's purtty attractive. Can you say for sure that the Teamsters would not honor other unions lines? What does that do for the GCPA? Would the Teamsters cross the lines of other unions around the world for the benefit of themselves? If that's the case it doesn't say much for the leadership, honor or belief in organized labor if one union is willing to stab another in the back. If I am to become a Teamster I want to know that they will back any union, regardless of affiliation, to stand up for the rights of all workers.

 

[fodc8]

Did anyone from 1224 come to any of the public activities Astar held in ILN or Miami????? Other Airlines showed up to give support.

 

[WickedPissa]

Astar has made the offer to buy out ABX, including everything down to the pencils on the desk. (the offer was for ALL of the ABX stock)

Astar has and still flies charters. Astar has operated the Pacific Rim, North, Central and South America, Europe and the Middle East. The ANA contract is with ABX appears to be a lucritive venture, and I would bet DHL would be interested in getting involved with it also.

Time will tell.

I guess you can say the money is in the Rim jobs.

 

[rotor&wing]

I guess you can say the money is in the Rim jobs.

One thing's for sure, if bullsh1t was brass, DHL would be a band............

 

[freighthound]

I am an Astar guy. I would suggest to all on both sides of the fence to keep an open mind when selecting Union representation. All Unions have their pros and cons. To simpley align your self with your current representation ,"JUST BECAUSE" is not smart. Both groups should listen to each Union's sales pitch and then select the best that will represent the intrests of us all. One group or the other will not get an egde up on a merger of seniority lists just because their Union will be the final representation. Unions by law can get involved which is why each group must flip the bill for themselves. KEEP AN OPEN MIND!!!

I have to agree with you on this, and I hope that people on this thread aren't promoting one union over the other in hopes of hosing the other side on the merged seniority list.

 

[freighthound]

Did anyone from 1224 come to any of the public activities Astar held in ILN or Miami????? Other Airlines showed up to give support.

Let me see, you expected the union members who would lose their jobs, if ALPA was successful in their law suit, to support your labor rallies. That makes a heck of a lot of sense?

I understand if this merger/buyout goes through we will be on the same team and have to let bygones be bygones, but don't insult 1224 by asking why we didn't support the same labor group who was trying to get our jobs.

I don't want to hijack this thread with old news, but I couldn't let this insult go by without responding.

 

[freighthound]

You have to admit that's purtty attractive. Can you say for sure that the Teamsters would not honor other unions lines? What does that do for the GCPA? Would the Teamsters cross the lines of other unions around the world for the benefit of themselves? If that's the case it doesn't say much for the leadership, honor or belief in organized labor if one union is willing to stab another in the back. If I am to become a Teamster I want to know that they will back any union, regardless of affiliation, to stand up for the rights of all workers.

You mean supporting other unions like the way ALPA did when the NWA mechanics went on strike?

 

[WickedPissa]

Guys, if you play the cards right, you can all have Rim jobs. Just settle down.

 

[abxaviator]

You mean supporting other unions like the way ALPA did when the NWA mechanics went on strike?

Obviously NW had no problems with ALPA pilots flying through that strike. That was exactly my point, ALPA has no ability to honor a strike by another union, just as the Teamsters would not be able to directly support an ALPA pilot group's strike.

I agree with with the statemnet that one should not support a particular union thinking that will provide a advantage in a merge. The affiliation is decided first and which is which will have zero bearing on the mechanics of the merged list.

 

[freightdogfred]

I think you're misinformed here. I'm no huge fan of ALPA, but they didn't "get rid" of Emery jobs. The Emery pilots started a "call the FAA" program because of their maintenance being so shoddy. The Feds started digging, and Emery turned in their operating certificate. (That's the basics, as I remember.) ALPA can't protect jobs at a company that "turns in it's wings". Now the AA/TWA thing was a whole different deal. The MEC listened to National and gave up their Scope rights, as they were about to go bankrupt. As in cease operations bankrupt. They took the chance of receiving mercy from AA in the purchase deal. AA took them to the cleaners in the integration. Bad advice? Maybe. I don't know. Are there any ex-TWA guys following this thread that would care to rehash what happened? Or correct any statements I've made here that might be wrong?

You are actually the one who is misinformed. Freighthound is right on the money with his post. Without going into the long, sad, conspiracy story between ALPA,Emery and the Feds, let it suffice to say that ALPA hung Emery council 110 out to dry, merely to protect their high level Fed butt-buddies in DC. Duane Woerth is a lying c0cksuckr, and if I ever see him, I'll tell him to his face.

 

[hvydriver]

Actually Fred, I'm not. And I'm not going to get into the whole "trying to take your job" argument again. I'm bagging out of this thread. I'm sensing civility is about to sneak out the back door. Again. It was a good discourse while it lasted. Good luck to all.

 

[Box-Hauler]

not to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion but if ALPA wins in a representation vote it will still be the majority of pilots that will decide their fate. Lets say for the argument that a few pilots from ABX vote ALPA and the newly formed group is now represented by ALPA. What would prevent the ABX pilots from voting in "their" boys to run the newly elected ALPA union. This is my understanding of how APA works does ALPA not work the same?

 

[abxaviator]

That's correct, as I said earlier, voting ALPA or Teamsters to gain an advantage when merging the lists is not reality. The merge will be the same either way. I would urge ALL to look closely at the pros and cons of each union and decide which can provide the greatest benefit to THIS pilot group in the long term.

 

[inplaneview]

Seems to me that all this discussion on how the two pilot groups will merge is off point. Apparently we (ABX) have hired a Chief Operating Officer. Doesn't seem likely to me Joe would bring on a COO if he was planning a merge.

ABX Air announced today the creation of the position of Chief Operating Officer. It has hired John Graber, an industry veteran, to fill the post. The new position is designed to best position ABX Air to move forward strategically.


"During 2007 ABX Air will lose three key executives through retirements and John will provide the added expertise to ensure our continued success both short and long term," said Joe Hete, President and CEO. In his new role John will report to the CEO and have direct responsibility for Flight Operations, Maintenance and Engineering and Ground Services.

Graber, an industry veteran with over two decades of civil and military operational experience comes to ABX Air from AAR Corporation, where he was the President and General Manager of Aircraft Services Indianapolis - one of the largest MROs (Maintenance Repair Organization) in the nation. Prior to that, Graber was the Senior Vice President of Operations and General Manager of the Military and Charter businesses at ATA Airlines. His experience includes over 10,000 hours of flight time as a pilot. He has flown as a check airman, served as a chief pilot, and is a decorated combat veteran of Desert Storm. He holds an MBA from the University of Notre Dame.


"John Graber brings a strong record of international operational excellence to us.” Hete said. "He led one of the largest international charter airlines at ATA. He was the senior operational leader on the team that successfully guided ATA through some difficult times. We’re looking forward to having his business skills, experience and energy working for ABX Air.”

 

[rotor&wing]

Seems to me that all this discussion on how the two pilot groups will merge is off point. Apparently we (ABX) have hired a Chief Operating Officer. Doesn't seem likely to me Joe would bring on a COO if he was planning a merge.

this guy was brought in for far more reaching reasons than you see here. your "top execs" that are "retiring" are actually popping their golden parachutes and leaving.

this guy has been brought in as a hired gun. you're not going to like what his mission is.

 

[shooter]

this guy was brought in for far more reaching reasons than you see here. your "top execs" that are "retiring" are actually popping their golden parachutes and leaving.

this guy has been brought in as a hired gun. you're not going to like what his mission is.

And just what would that mission be? I see it as the new maint. base ABX will have once they buy Pace. Look at his experience.

 

[freighthound]

this guy was brought in for far more reaching reasons than you see here. your "top execs" that are "retiring" are actually popping their golden parachutes and leaving.

this guy has been brought in as a hired gun. you're not going to like what his mission is.

I have never seen a group of people that take such great pleasure in the possible demise of other peoples livelihoods, (okay other than management) . You all can hate ABX all you want but show some human compassion and try to not rub salt in our wounds before they're even created.

 

[Cargoav8or]

That's correct, as I said earlier, voting ALPA or Teamsters to gain an advantage when merging the lists is not reality. The merge will be the same either way. I would urge ALL to look closely at the pros and cons of each union and decide which can provide the greatest benefit to THIS pilot group in the long term.

I can tell you there are plenty that would vote IBT at Astar because they are sick of APLA. I am sure you can guess why. As for a merger, that will be between the arbitrator and lawyers.