ABX says NO THANK YOU to ASTAR

[abxaviator]

Our turns used to be shorter too. DHL moved the arrivals up and departures back. Also, how many pieces were sorted in CVG and how many now in ILN, that's why it takes longer.

 

[shooter]

I reread my post from the other day. I did not mean to come accross so harsh. I just wanted to say that I hope the ABX pilots don't get screwed by Hete. I hope Hete and the board did not screw the employees of ABX by not accepting DAZ's offer. I know Daz is no prize but in the long run I still believe that the Pilots at Astar and ABX would be better off together AND WORKING TOGETHER than not.

DHL has always been an express company. That was their only product they offered until recently. Overnight express was it! And guess what? They did it well!! Fact!! Even in their screwed up ignigma of an operation. Earlier this year the University of Georga performed a test of UPS, FED-EX, DHL systems. They pushed the limit of each company in every aspect of their opperations. Who was the best. Believe it or not good old DHL!!! That made me feel good. I want DHL to do well because if they do then MAYBE just MAYBE I will too. I think DP has made it very clear that they fully intend to do well in the USA. DP is spending money here like it grows on trees. And DP has the money make no mistake about that!! Lots of money!! It will take years for DHL to clean up the mess that DHL itself has created. And they will.

From a business view point the C container makes no sense at all. And all the junk equipment it requires. When DHL gets a fully automated system at ILN you will see why the A container works better. In CVG our hub turns were only about 3 hours not this 5-7 hour S--T!!

you are correct about DHL express. My point is that since being founded in 1969, DHL had never run the express business as it should. That is why the international business had grown leaps and bounds while the US market (the best days for US companies as customers) declined. The push in the early '80's only provided DHL with 2-3% of the domestic market share. By the late '80's that grew to around 5% only to decrease back to 2% by the late '90's. By purchasing Airborne, their market share screamed to around 21% only to be on a decline since. So you have to deduce that someone making the decisions for DHL in the US is incompetent.

I hope you are right about the new equipment making DHL a better competitor against UPS and FedEx. But it was my understanding the new "smalls" sort has already been on line. What are they working on now?

 

[abxaviator]

It's official, "Hot News" release of our purchase of the first 767ER from Air China.

 

[shooter]

It's official, "Hot News" release of our purchase of the first 767ER from Air China.

1 down, 4 to go. I wonder when they will release the rest of the AA aircraft.

 

[AV8OR]

Shooter, legit question.....

I hear the phrase, "Airborne knew the right way to get Express done and DHL doesn't know jack about it." or something to that affect and often a positive statement regarding the C can tied to it. Now, I'm all for thinking outside the box, (no pun intended), but given that no other shipper in the world who ships "express" has gone to the C- can and the Chinese have never sought fit to steal the patent and make them cheaper, I've always been surprised that Airborne/ABX folks seemed to think that the C-can was gonna set the world on fire, once they all apprently realized how inferior A-cans were. Do the ABX folks see this like the old "VHS" vs. "Beta" debate, where clearly the better choice is shouted down by larger more established entities?

I can see how the C-can may have worked for Airborne for a time, but it just seems that the way forward would have eventually meant A-cans.


Last, as far as laying investor money on ABX or AStar.....I never tought either of us had the whole package. ABX, 2 man crews and some fan engine jets, but almost no cargo doors and fairly ineficient (IMO) DC-9s. AStar, Cargo door fleet and long history of doing things the "DHL way", but also, no CATII, 3 man crews, and hangar queen A-300s.

Depending on how things play out, we'll see whether or not Joe and Das made the best decisions. Joe wanted more money than DHL would give and ANA was willing to pony up. Das/DHL, seeing that Joe was desiring to pull away from DHL, decided to see if they could re-rope the ABX calf into the herd. So far, not.

Last Q. Since Joe seems to be headed in another direction, one that doesn't involve DHL, and yall seem pleased with this decision, do you think yall are gonna be pi$$ed if we suddenly announced an AStar refleet plan? Not baiting, and I don't know of one. Just wondering.

 

[shooter]

Shooter, legit question.....

I hear the phrase, "Airborne knew the right way to get Express done and DHL doesn't know jack about it." or something to that affect and often a positive statement regarding the C can tied to it. Now, I'm all for thinking outside the box, (no pun intended), but given that no other shipper in the world who ships "express" has gone to the C- can and the Chinese have never sought fit to steal the patent and make them cheaper, I've always been surprised that Airborne/ABX folks seemed to think that the C-can was gonna set the world on fire, once they all apprently realized how inferior A-cans were. Do the ABX folks see this like the old "VHS" vs. "Beta" debate, where clearly the better choice is shouted down by larger more established entities?

I can see how the C-can may have worked for Airborne for a time, but it just seems that the way forward would have eventually meant A-cans.


Last, as far as laying investor money on ABX or AStar.....I never tought either of us had the whole package. ABX, 2 man crews and some fan engine jets, but almost no cargo doors and fairly ineficient (IMO) DC-9s. AStar, Cargo door fleet and long history of doing things the "DHL way", but also, no CATII, 3 man crews, and hangar queen A-300s.

Depending on how things play out, we'll see whether or not Joe and Das made the best decisions. Joe wanted more money than DHL would give and ANA was willing to pony up. Das/DHL, seeing that Joe was desiring to pull away from DHL, decided to see if they could re-rope the ABX calf into the herd. So far, not.

Last Q. Since Joe seems to be headed in another direction, one that doesn't involve DHL, and yall seem pleased with this decision, do you think yall are gonna be pi$$ed if we suddenly announced an AStar refleet plan? Not baiting, and I don't know of one. Just wondering.

wasn't going to "set the cargo world on fire" because ABX held the patent on it and would not release it. Maybe now that DHL owns the patent, it will be opened for all carriers. Good questions though. More to ponder about the future of Air Cargo...........

p.s. the re-fleet Astar would be great news for you and DHL. Your airline needs it. I don't see why I would be upset, it is long over due. Actually I would breathe a sigh of relief since it means Das is going to try and build an airline rather than hose some other work group for all their hard work. Got some hot news of your own???

 

[shooter]

AV8OR, with all RJ's on line and all those EMB-120's being parked, don't you think the C-container is a better option to convert than net a loose load? Could be the future short hauls on the ramp. And DHL owns it. What do you think? Want to buy a couple EMB-120's w/me?

 

[AV8OR]

AV8OR, with all RJ's on line and all those EMB-120's being parked, don't you think the C-container is a better option to convert than net a loose load? Could be the future short hauls on the ramp. And DHL owns it. What do you think? Want to buy a couple EMB-120's w/me?

Shooter,

Thanks for the invite, but,

A. I ain't got any money.

B. I think we're too late. I've seen at least one Brasilia on the ramp already.

C. I need more than a 1.75% return on my investment.

Maybe we could get something done with that idea in
Asia. You got any connections there?:beer:

 

[shooter]

Shooter,

Thanks for the invite, but,

A. I ain't got any money.

B. I think we're too late. I've seen at least one Brasilia on the ramp already.

C. I need more than a 1.75% return on my investment.

Maybe we could get something done with that idea in
Asia. You got any connections there?:beer:

A. borrow it, like me.

B. I think that is a loose load Brazilia, we would use the C-container.

C. Got me there.

I ain't flyin no Brazilian A/C in Asia....the world might stop turning!:laugh:

(They could not even get all the labeling in english in there.)

 

[Box-Hauler]

Shooter, are the floors of the RJ even able to handle a cargo load. Also why use a jet when you can get a turbo prop, more efficient on the short hauls. Think ATR 42/72, Saab 2000, Jetstream41. I bet you could get a sweet deal on a few of any of the above. Offer a "mesa" like deal to start flying in Asia and you are set. I got about $20 and am looking to invest heavily, let me know when you are ready........imp:

 

[jdflyer51]

I think that the c container is a moot issue. Even Joe Hete admits it was an idea whose time has passed. As everything in Airborne's past, individual payoffs were involved there. Brasier and Cline profited handsomely from their sale as did Hete, Weismann and other officers from the new runway. I personally believe that Astar will be refleeted. Additional 767 300s will come and all of us will be flying them after the fence comes down. The word that the eboard and the mec have heard as well as others, directly from Germany is that this whole thing will be bigger than we can imagine. I tend to believe that is true. Accordingly, I look forward to when we are merged and we can wield some negotiating power as a combined group.

 

[inplaneview]

From Air Cargo News, 7 Aug 07:
ABX extends its reach

07-Aug-2007 : ABX Air has signed an agreement to buy ex-Chinese Boeing 767-200s and convert them into freighters.

The cargo airline said it will purchase the Boeing 767-200 aircraft, powered by Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7R4E engines, from Air China. The cost to purchase the aircraft and refit it for cargo transport will be about $23 million, ABX said in a news release.

The 767-200 will be used for long-range, international transport, the airline said. It is the first extended-reach aircraft ABX has purchased.

"This investment in additional 767 lift capacity reflects our confidence in the growth and vitality of the air cargo market, particularly outside the United States," said Joe Hete, president and chief executive officer.

First paragraph: "ABX Air has signed an agreement to buy ex-Chinese Boeing 767-200s and convert them into freighters."

First time I've read in the press that we have signed agreement to by more than one Air China airplane. Have we announced this formally? How many and when are they gettin' here?!

 

[erichartmann]

The latest from the rumor mill is that ABX has already purchased all of the available 767-200's worth buying. This may or may not include unannounced additional aircraft from AA and Air China, though I'm told the AA deal was for the one aircraft only. ABX is now actively pursuing the purchase of 767-300's.

ABX apparently "owns" the next 100 conversion slots for 767 aircraft. The plan is to convert the current "C" container aircraft if no additional 767-200/300 pax airframes are purchased in time to fill upcoming slots.

I doubt the ABX/Astar/DHL deal is dead yet. I'm not sure how it will play out, but I think DHL still wants ABX's fleet. Hete wants more money. DHL/DP doesn't want to pay. Personally I think Aster/DHL/DP will try to drive the ABX stock price down to make the $7.75 offer look good. They may even sweeten it a bit. Hete may try to get ANA to buy in. ANA may do it because they also want the ABX lift. We're in play, and unfortunately the rank and file are simply along for the ride.

 

[UM#1]

FROM THE LATEST ISSUE OF AIR CARGO WORLD:

http://www.aircargoworld.com/features/0807_1.htm



The 767-300 is one of Boeing's newest conversion programs, launched in October 2005 with All Nippon Airways as the first customer. The 767-300 converted freighter will have virtually the same cargo capability as the 767-300 factory-built freighter, with about 52 tonnes of structural payload at a range of approximately 3,100 nautical miles at 412,000 pounds maximum takeoff weight.
Under the Boeing Converted Freighter program, Boeing is totally responsible for all modification designs, management, certification and after-delivery service.


Boeing also manages the modification centers that actually perform the touch labor.


The 767-300 conversion modification centers are Singapore Technologies Aerospace in Singapore and Alenia Aeronavali in Italy. It takes about 120 days to convert the plane to a freighter, and the plane can carry 24 88-by-125 inch pallets on the main deck plus 14 LD-2 containers and four 96-by-125 inch pallets on the lower deck.


There are two 767-200 "special freighter" programs available.


Aeronavali has a license from Boeing to convert 767-200 planes to cargo configuration. Israel Aircraft Industries' Bedek Aviation Group began a conversion program in late 2001, designated the 767-200BDSF. It initially converted nine 767-200s for Airborne Express without a main deck cargo door. It then obtained supplemental type certificates in the United States, Europe and Israel for conversion with a maindeck cargo door.


The company has converted 29 767-200s for ABX and GECAS, with the GECAS aircraft flying for Tampa Airlines in Colombia and Star Air in Europe. Hadassah Paz, a spokesman for Bedek Group, said the company has "quite a number of firm orders and options for the 767-200 conversion, (but) because the passenger segment is booming, customers currently have difficulties getting feed stock."



Conversion is done in Israel and Brazil.
Paz also said Bedek has launched a 767-300 conversion program under a 50/50 partnership with Mitsui. These will be converted through the establishment of the M&B Conversion Company in Dublin.


The first 767-200 freighter conversion being done under the Boeing approved service bulletin is nearing completion at Aeronavali's Venice facility and is expected to fly in September or October, according to Giuseppe Gambino, Aeronavali's sales manager. Boeing will perform all the certification test flying, Gambino said. The company has firm orders for five conversions, including the test aircraft that will be turned over to the customer once certification is completed. Options on another five conversions have also been placed, and Aeronavali "is in serious discussions" with several other possible customers, Gambino said.


Cargo conversion of the 767-200 takes about four-and-a-half months and costs roughly $12.5 million, he said. However, Air Cargo Management Group put the cost of the 767-200 converted freighter at $9 million to $10 million and conversion of the A300-600 or A310-300 at $8.5 million to $9.5 million.


Total cost of conversion obviously depends on numerous factors, including the cost of the airframe plus engines and avionics. And while it used to be that a general rule of thumb was that the low initial cost could overcome the longer-term higher cost of maintenance and fuel, that rule could be changing.
Fried noted as jet fuel moves closer to $4 a gallon, "there is a compelling argument to purchase one of those (newer) aircraft. I've heard that there is a 25 percent efficiency of the newer aircraft over the planes that are out there now."

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

From penguin22.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyjetDC8
We, as a group, sleepwalked into this because a survey wasn't taken to determine the prevalent attitude to the ANA charter logistics

Wrong. We had a zoomerang survey on that. I'm sure your negative vote on the whole idea was counted.
__________________

All the way back to post #71. Excuse my tardiness in replying but I've been away on an Asian fun trip. It was very Asian but it wasn't very much fun. I'm not in the best of moods.

Actually Fisheater, it is you who are wrong. Perhaps you've simply forgotten the chronology. I'll remind you. The Zommerang-boomerang survey didn't come out until after our union intelligensia had negotiated themselves between a rock and a hard place. Simple enough one would have thought - just say no. Trouble is that they initially didn't although the membership did.

So then we had the panic survey and I'm sure your vote for a concessionary contract was counted. Music to Joe's ears. Time to change NO concessionary contracts! into:

penguin: will do japan for fish.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Double post.

 

[GoABX]

Supposedly we only have 4-5 items left plus pay and retirement. Pay probably won't be that contentious seeing as we asked for a Tiny raise and the company has countered with Tiny -.5%. How long long can you possibly dicker over that?!!

Then let's vote. And when we are done voting, Jayson Ross can fix those big problems. Apparently our group is not that concerned about making more money, but rather quality of life issues. In the end those items are cheaper for the company than bumping salaries.

 

[erichartmann]

Voting

Its really very simple. When the T/A is presented for a vote, just say no. :bomb:

The the E-Board will have to determine why the T/A was voted down and attempt to negotiate a fix. Hopefully this will result in a real survey, one were the membership can express its opinions. :angryfire

Some or all of both the E-Board and the negotiating committee may resign, particularly if they truely believe they brought back the best deal they could get. :nuts:

Hete, of course, will screw himself into the overhead amid dire claims of loss of the ANA deal, furloughs etc. :uzi:

 

[ke4lir]

Its really very simple. When the T/A is presented for a vote, just say no. :bomb:

The the E-Board will have to determine why the T/A was voted down and attempt to negotiate a fix. Hopefully this will result in a real survey, one were the membership can express its opinions. :angryfire

Some or all of both the E-Board and the negotiating committee may resign, particularly if they truely believe they brought back the best deal they could get. :nuts:

Hete, of course, will screw himself into the overhead amid dire claims of loss of the ANA deal, furloughs etc. :uzi:

So exactly whose side are you on? If you don't trust the E-Board then why didn't you run?

 

[ABXbooger]

Better yet, call them personally and tell them your side...they listened to me when I was furloughed.