ABX Recalling

[hvydriver]

IF you do not give a rip why respond? "You guys" had the misfortune of flying a fleet of old junk.It would not mater if you if "hold the line " like you love to spout or worked for free your fleet and the Daz. put you out of business that will not change.

While all that may indeed be true, as I recall you guys were wanting us to "hold the line" too. The fact is you guys are "racing yourselves to the bottom". Good luck with that.

 

[nitefr8dog]

While all that may indeed be true, as I recall you guys were wanting us to "hold the line" too. The fact is you guys are "racing yourselves to the bottom". Good luck with that.

All this great wisdom from a group that signed a contract to get pay raises, buy new aircraft, drop a lawsuit all while DHL was loosing a billion plus ea year in the US. LMAO! What planet do you live on? If nothing else you guys have been entertaining. Watch MSNBC OR Bloomberg you might see what is going on in the world.

 

[hvydriver]

All this great wisdom from a group that signed a contract to get pay raises, buy new aircraft, drop a lawsuit all while DHL was loosing a billion plus ea year in the US. LMAO! What planet do you live on? If nothing else you guys have been entertaining. Watch MSNBC OR Bloomberg you might see what is going on in the world.

It is what it is Dog.

 

[shooter]

The "DHL operation" of a year ago is gone. The Airborne Express of 5 years ago is also gone. Trying to "hold the line" in this operation just doesn't pass the mustard test Hvy. It is an ACMI DHL now and DHL does not care who the "C" is of the ACMI. And the ABX pilots know the ATSG management really don't care either as long as they have the "A" part of the ACMI locked in. The pilots of ABX know this, you know this and so does everyone else.

You know you would have to do the same thing in order to keep your job if Astar were in ABX shoes. These are not negotiations with your own company's freight. It sucks for everyone involved with the abortion known as DHL, including your company's fate. Trying to secure the best deal one can while maintaining some sort of professional dignity is something all ACMI pilots will benefit from when it is time for their negotiations. You act as if ABX is negotiating lower than dirt-bag carrier 727 rates. I know you said you are done with aviation, but if you can only find ACMI flying, wouldn't you want to go with the best paid?

Having an independent, self sustaining operation for ABX went by way of the Dodo when a giant yellow sea pickle washed ashore.

 

[AV8OR]

You have been sitting in on our talks? How did "holding the line" work out for you? Every US carrier "operating more than 4 aircraft" including UPS and FDX have taken some kind of hit. I think being the highest paid ACMI carrier in this market is not going to suck you evidently do. I do not think I would like to trade places with you but you can say you held the line right up until you lost your job.I asked my family if we should hold out or keep sleeping under our roof and buying groceries, they all agreed they like having a roof over our head instead of sleeping in our truck! Call me crazy.

I agree with nite here. Clearly we made a tactical error in trying to retain what had been DHL/AStar flying for the last 25yrs by actually trying to enforce our scope clause. Clearly the only way to achieve holding onto/taking over of DHL flying was through a concessionary contract.

But just as a point of order, would anyone here who made the claim that A. Our last contract was "concessionary", because it didn't include "retro pay"...or
B. That 1224 was simply negotiating lower pay in order to secure NON-DHL flying.
or C. That we began a "race to the bottom" by negotiating lower pay rates to secure 767 flying.

wanna step up and take a bow for making those "claims" while actually DOING those very things you claimed AStar pilots were doing? I mean, since the veil is clearly off, you might as well just admit it.

Between the whole "threeway" goin on at ABX and cabotage probably right around the corner...whew....I'm just glad I'm done. It's been on XXXXy ride.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

All this great wisdom from a group that signed a contract to get pay raises, buy new aircraft...

Just to clarify, there was never any real incentive for Astar to "buy new aircraft" The contract simply required them to pay a token amount ($100,000 per year/per acft) to the pilots if they didn't. The actual amount was only a fraction of one-percent of the annual payroll, the hourly rates of which were already about 15% behind UPS and FedEx. Astar pilots had, in effect, been duped into bankrolling the company's "penalties" for not re-fleeting and upgrading.

Even then, DHL/Astar almost certainly knew they wouldn't be "paying" those penalties beyond the second year of the contract, as the desire to be rid of Astar was being discussed by DPWN even while the contract was being negotiated. All they needed was to be rid of that pesky "Scope Clause..."

I say again...there was NO incentive to "buy new aircraft," just a bunch of gobbledy-gook words on a page that must have made somebody feel good, sometime. That's ALL.

 

[erichartmann]

I agree with nite here. Clearly we made a tactical error in trying to retain what had been DHL/AStar flying for the last 25yrs by actually trying to enforce our scope clause. Clearly the only way to achieve holding onto/taking over of DHL flying was through a concessionary contract.

But just as a point of order, would anyone here who made the claim that A. Our last contract was "concessionary", because it didn't include "retro pay"...or
B. That 1224 was simply negotiating lower pay in order to secure NON-DHL flying.
or C. That we began a "race to the bottom" by negotiating lower pay rates to secure 767 flying.

wanna step up and take a bow for making those "claims" while actually DOING those very things you claimed AStar pilots were doing? I mean, since the veil is clearly off, you might as well just admit it.

Between the whole "threeway" goin on at ABX and cabotage probably right around the corner...whew....I'm just glad I'm done. It's been on XXXXy ride.

Much has changed since all of this started. Most, if not all of us expected to "hold the line" in our contract negotiations. That all came to an end with DHL's May announcement. I seem to recall you reaching agreement on your contract prior to that announcement. From May forward we were in the same boat as most of your APLA peers; i.e. negotiating a concessionary agreement to lower our employer's costs in hopes of retaining enough business to keep the company afloat and retain (some) jobs. Given DHL's accelerating downward momentum this was difficult at best, but necessary. Sadly, more than half of our peers in the ABX portion of 1224 lost their jobs, at did 9/10's of the company's other employees. The majority of them have no realistic hope of ever getting those jobs back.

A realistic unbiased look would show we were forced by circumstances beyond our control to adjust our goals and expectations.

 

[flyinboxes]

Just to clarify, there was never any real incentive for Astar to "buy new aircraft" The contract simply required them to pay a token amount ($100,000 per year/per acft) to the pilots if they didn't. The actual amount was only a fraction of one-percent of the annual payroll, the hourly rates of which were already about 15% behind UPS and FedEx. Astar pilots had, in effect, been duped into bankrolling the company's "penalties" for not re-fleeting and upgrading.

Even then, DHL/Astar almost certainly knew they wouldn't be "paying" those penalties beyond the second year of the contract, as the desire to be rid of Astar was being discussed by DPWN even while the contract was being negotiated. All they needed was to be rid of that pesky "Scope Clause..."

I say again...there was NO incentive to "buy new aircraft," just a bunch of gobbledy-gook words on a page that must have made somebody feel good, sometime. That's ALL.

I actually agree with whistlin for the first time in my life. We all new it wasn't much but it was something. Negotiations were long and hard and the pressure was taking its toll. Finally we had a deal, a good one. Good raises, good work rules etc. We gave up nothing. DHL said hurry, we need to get this done. We need to move forward all the while negotiating like the scum they are behind our backs with UPS. We played the cards we were dealt. We played fair and by the rules. They did not. They are liars, we are not. We coould never have known. They had a tank, we had a knife. I am glad to never work for them again.

 

[AV8OR]

Much has changed since all of this started. Most, if not all of us expected to "hold the line" in our contract negotiations. That all came to an end with DHL's May announcement. I seem to recall you reaching agreement on your contract prior to that announcement. From May forward we were in the same boat as most of your APLA peers; i.e. negotiating a concessionary agreement to lower our employer's costs in hopes of retaining enough business to keep the company afloat and retain (some) jobs. Given DHL's accelerating downward momentum this was difficult at best, but necessary. Sadly, more than half of our peers in the ABX portion of 1224 lost their jobs, at did 9/10's of the company's other employees. The majority of them have no realistic hope of ever getting those jobs back.

A realistic unbiased look would show we were forced by circumstances beyond our control to adjust our goals and expectations.

MMmm but then, the UPS deal fell apart, and DHL's been losing 1Billion a year for 5 years here. Plus, they apparently have the money to spend on brand new 767ER's and pilot cost is the least of their financial woes. I'm thinkin it had more to do with undercutting AStar and bein worried about the others under the ATSG umbrella and Atlas/Polar than the May announcement.

Eh, its a moot point. Whether it was scope protection, or "concessionary" bargaining, it's always been "OK" if 1224 does it. Like I said....it's kinda nice to tap out and watch somebody else "deal" with DHL for a while. Good luck. Yall are gonna need it.

 

[shooter]

...Like I said....it's kinda nice to tap out and watch somebody else "deal" with DHL for a while. Good luck. Yall are gonna need it.

I don't know how much DHL ABX will be dealing with when it comes to negotiations. ABX is just another ACMI in the DHL network. Like I said, the days of "your" DHL and ABX's Airborne Express are long gone. And as Eric was saying, this line you all keep referring to is no longer an "in network" line. It has been redrawn in the ACMI sand.

It is all German DHL freight, the domestic freight has been abandoned. No matter how you try and slice it up, it went down hill for "your" DHL and Airborne when the deutschmark bought the Americans out and the workers are left holding the bag.

 

[nitefr8dog]

MMmm but then, the UPS deal fell apart, and DHL's been losing 1Billion a year for 5 years here. Plus, they apparently have the money to spend on brand new 767ER's and pilot cost is the least of their financial woes. I'm thinkin it had more to do with undercutting AStar and bein worried about the others under the ATSG umbrella and Atlas/Polar than the May announcement.

Eh, its a moot point. Whether it was scope protection, or "concessionary" bargaining, it's always been "OK" if 1224 does it. Like I said....it's kinda nice to tap out and watch somebody else "deal" with DHL for a while. Good luck. Yall are gonna need it.

Fortunately for the guys at ABX unlike Astar we do not rely on DHL for all our work. Bad for you guys these are the choices we make to work for air carrier you choose. We keep hearing we took a hit for the DHL flying, we are adjusting to all the flying we do not only the DHL work. Some of this outside of DHL flying pays alot more and is more important than the DHL flying.

 

[shooter]

Fortunately for the guys at ABX unlike Astar we do not rely on DHL for all our work. Bad for you guys these are the choices we make to work for air carrier you choose. We keep hearing we took a hit for the DHL flying, we are adjusting to all the flying we do not only the DHL work. Some of this outside of DHL flying pays alot more and is more important than the DHL flying.

You are right that our work outside of DHL has greater returns and possible future growth. But rumor has it that DHL has asked its current international US based customers if they are interested in express service. WTF!?!?!? I laughed and shrugged it off as another crazy rumor, then heard it again from the outside.

So the question I have would be; if true, would they try and build it as Airborne had it with low cost product or try to go head to head with UPS and FedEx again? It sounds like they learned their lesson, but who knows whats true or false in their yellow world.

Speaking of problems, you took a major bath in the U.S., a market for which you had grand plans. What went wrong?
Our strategy to rebuild our domestic business in the U.S. wasn't wrong, but we stumbled in execution. We bought Airborne Express, which was a value player when we are inherently a premium player. We threw out the management at Airborne, which was a mistake. Instead of keeping our focus on being a value player, we took the premium route in a market where our two main competitors, FedEx and UPS, were premium brands. In sum, we over-invested, lost management talent and tried to get customers at prices that didn't justify the offering. The lesson is that when you make a domestic acquisition, then you must retain the local management. That's what we did in India when we acquired express firm Blue Dart to great success.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/08/dhl-logistics-ceo-leadership-logistics-appel.html

 

[Box-Hauler]

You are right that our work outside of DHL has greater returns and possible future growth. But rumor has it that DHL has asked its current international US based customers if they are interested in express service. WTF!?!?!? I laughed and shrugged it off as another crazy rumor, then heard it again from the outside.

So the question I have would be; if true, would they try and build it as Airborne had it with low cost product or try to go head to head with UPS and FedEx again? It sounds like they learned their lesson, but who knows whats true or false in their yellow world.



http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/08/dhl-logistics-ceo-leadership-logistics-appel.html

Shooter are you trying to make my head explode, I have finally gotten out of the fetal position from this whole DHL screw job, now you are telling me the rumor mill has them coming back as Airborne Part 2. I don't know if I can take any more of this.

That settles it I am going to stop waiting around for my severance and go get a better flying job, I am thinking Brown, Purple or maybe even Delta.............. Oh crap I am like 3 or 4 years too late...............

Oh well, back to the fetal position, I think I will add bed wetting, that should help.

 

[mxer]

Shooter are you trying to make my head explode, I have finally gotten out of the fetal position from this whole DHL screw job, now you are telling me the rumor mill has them coming back as Airborne Part 2. I don't know if I can take any more of this.

That settles it I am going to stop waiting around for my severance and go get a better flying job, I am thinking Brown, Purple or maybe even Delta.............. Oh crap I am like 3 or 4 years too late...............

Oh well, back to the fetal position, I think I will add bed wetting, that should help.

Box, the bed wetting may not help. However, as it gets colder in Ohio and we can no longeer afford high heat bills. May just be an option.

 

[shooter]

Shooter are you trying to make my head explode, I have finally gotten out of the fetal position from this whole DHL screw job, now you are telling me the rumor mill has them coming back as Airborne Part 2. I don't know if I can take any more of this.

That settles it I am going to stop waiting around for my severance and go get a better flying job, I am thinking Brown, Purple or maybe even Delta.............. Oh crap I am like 3 or 4 years too late...............

Oh well, back to the fetal position, I think I will add bed wetting, that should help.

I don't want to imply anything. I just found the rumor shocking as they had (and screwed away) a nice customer base they got when they bought Airborne.

Don't lose too much sleep over DHL rumors. It's their business, their customers they will try and lure back. All we do is work the aircraft to where they want them to go. It sure would be nice that they go the Airborne way and build their business. It could mean more work for ABX and that was all I was trying to say...in the long version.

EDIT: But rumor #2 is that CVG is not working out too well for DHL.