ABX Recalling

[hvydriver]

Sorry ABX, I meant to quote nite. I'll be gone Mar. 06. I'd be pretty surprised if we last past Christmas.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Sorry ABX, I meant to quote nite. I'll be gone Mar. 06. I'd be pretty surprised if we last past Christmas.

So will I.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I stand by what I said.

"The fact is there will still be HUNDREDS (60%+) of ABX pilots on permanent furlough."

You also said no new bussiness! I think everyone agrees with the DHL bussiness gone ABX will never have 650+ pilots on the list no mater how bad our management is that will not change. So your point is?

 

[flyinboxes]

You also said no new bussiness! I think everyone agrees with the DHL bussiness gone ABX will never have 650+ pilots on the list no mater how bad our management is that will not change. So your point is?

His point is DHL is a great company you can count on. Each day is a new adventure, it could be your first or last....what a way to live! Been gone two months.............hallelujah you can have it, AMEN! Already quite a spectacle the Nazis have going in CVG and will be fun to see what happens over the next few years. There are plans to abandon CVG like ILN should things continue downward for DHL. UPS or FDX perhaps? Still losing 600 million (est from inside connection). Will be a great day when they are gone. It is nice to LIVE again.

 

[abxaviator]

My point was, many of the posters were making comments like "great" and "awesome" and "trend" as if there might be some big reversal of the bad news and misery; no such luck, the recall is but a blip on the radar due to too many cuts too fast.

 

[nitefr8dog]

My point was, many of the posters were making comments like "great" and "awesome" and "trend" as if there might be some big reversal of the bad news and misery; no such luck, the recall is but a blip on the radar due to too many cuts too fast.

How about we separate fact and personal opinion. Like a$$holes everyone has one. Mine is the deal has already been inked. I agree the cuts were too deep made by an idiot who is now gone, but the bottom line really is there has been an increase in flying by DHL and a request for more increases. HRL, ATL both have postings for mechanics. JFK is also supposed to get a 2nd 767 that is my point. Dicked up?, sure but it is DHL/ABX and we are in contract negotiations.

 

[fob727]

Negotiations? Now that's a joke! You mean concessions.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Negotiations? Now that's a joke! You mean concessions.

You have been sitting in on our talks? How did "holding the line" work out for you? Every US carrier "operating more than 4 aircraft" including UPS and FDX have taken some kind of hit. I think being the highest paid ACMI carrier in this market is not going to suck you evidently do. I do not think I would like to trade places with you but you can say you held the line right up until you lost your job.I asked my family if we should hold out or keep sleeping under our roof and buying groceries, they all agreed they like having a roof over our head instead of sleeping in our truck! Call me crazy.

 

[hvydriver]

You have been sitting in on our talks? How did "holding the line" work out for you? Every US carrier "operating more than 4 aircraft" including UPS and FDX have taken some kind of hit. I think being the highest paid ACMI carrier in this market is not going to suck you evidently do. I do not think I would like to trade places with you but you can say you held the line right up until you lost your job.I asked my family if we should hold out or keep sleeping under our roof and buying groceries, they all agreed they like having a roof over our head instead of sleeping in our truck! Call me crazy.

Not that I give a rip anymore about this stuff, but it seems to me that some of you folks chastised us quite a bit about "holding the line". Which we did. So now naturally, it's ok for the 1224 to engage in massive givebacks that are directly related to securing DHL flying. 'Cause they are going to shut you down if you don't. That's what they told us, too. But we don't have newer a/c like you do. It's not "racing to the bottom" if you do it. Don't even bother to say that it isn't, because it is in your own hotlines, and in the ABX infolines as well. GMAFB. You are negotiating concessions with yourself. Hvy, out.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Not that I give a rip anymore about this stuff, but it seems to me that some of you folks chastised us quite a bit about "holding the line". Which we did. So now naturally, it's ok for the 1224 to engage in massive givebacks that are directly related to securing DHL flying. 'Cause they are going to shut you down if you don't. That's what they told us, too. But we don't have newer a/c like you do. It's not "racing to the bottom" if you do it. Don't even bother to say that it isn't, because it is in your own hotlines, and in the ABX infolines as well. GMAFB. You are negotiating concessions with yourself. Hvy, out.

IF you do not give a rip why respond? "You guys" had the misfortune of flying a fleet of old junk.It would not mater if you if "hold the line " like you love to spout or worked for free your fleet and the Daz. put you out of business that will not change.

 

[hvydriver]

IF you do not give a rip why respond? "You guys" had the misfortune of flying a fleet of old junk.It would not mater if you if "hold the line " like you love to spout or worked for free your fleet and the Daz. put you out of business that will not change.

While all that may indeed be true, as I recall you guys were wanting us to "hold the line" too. The fact is you guys are "racing yourselves to the bottom". Good luck with that.

 

[nitefr8dog]

While all that may indeed be true, as I recall you guys were wanting us to "hold the line" too. The fact is you guys are "racing yourselves to the bottom". Good luck with that.

All this great wisdom from a group that signed a contract to get pay raises, buy new aircraft, drop a lawsuit all while DHL was loosing a billion plus ea year in the US. LMAO! What planet do you live on? If nothing else you guys have been entertaining. Watch MSNBC OR Bloomberg you might see what is going on in the world.

 

[hvydriver]

All this great wisdom from a group that signed a contract to get pay raises, buy new aircraft, drop a lawsuit all while DHL was loosing a billion plus ea year in the US. LMAO! What planet do you live on? If nothing else you guys have been entertaining. Watch MSNBC OR Bloomberg you might see what is going on in the world.

It is what it is Dog.

 

[shooter]

The "DHL operation" of a year ago is gone. The Airborne Express of 5 years ago is also gone. Trying to "hold the line" in this operation just doesn't pass the mustard test Hvy. It is an ACMI DHL now and DHL does not care who the "C" is of the ACMI. And the ABX pilots know the ATSG management really don't care either as long as they have the "A" part of the ACMI locked in. The pilots of ABX know this, you know this and so does everyone else.

You know you would have to do the same thing in order to keep your job if Astar were in ABX shoes. These are not negotiations with your own company's freight. It sucks for everyone involved with the abortion known as DHL, including your company's fate. Trying to secure the best deal one can while maintaining some sort of professional dignity is something all ACMI pilots will benefit from when it is time for their negotiations. You act as if ABX is negotiating lower than dirt-bag carrier 727 rates. I know you said you are done with aviation, but if you can only find ACMI flying, wouldn't you want to go with the best paid?

Having an independent, self sustaining operation for ABX went by way of the Dodo when a giant yellow sea pickle washed ashore.

 

[AV8OR]

You have been sitting in on our talks? How did "holding the line" work out for you? Every US carrier "operating more than 4 aircraft" including UPS and FDX have taken some kind of hit. I think being the highest paid ACMI carrier in this market is not going to suck you evidently do. I do not think I would like to trade places with you but you can say you held the line right up until you lost your job.I asked my family if we should hold out or keep sleeping under our roof and buying groceries, they all agreed they like having a roof over our head instead of sleeping in our truck! Call me crazy.

I agree with nite here. Clearly we made a tactical error in trying to retain what had been DHL/AStar flying for the last 25yrs by actually trying to enforce our scope clause. Clearly the only way to achieve holding onto/taking over of DHL flying was through a concessionary contract.

But just as a point of order, would anyone here who made the claim that A. Our last contract was "concessionary", because it didn't include "retro pay"...or
B. That 1224 was simply negotiating lower pay in order to secure NON-DHL flying.
or C. That we began a "race to the bottom" by negotiating lower pay rates to secure 767 flying.

wanna step up and take a bow for making those "claims" while actually DOING those very things you claimed AStar pilots were doing? I mean, since the veil is clearly off, you might as well just admit it.

Between the whole "threeway" goin on at ABX and cabotage probably right around the corner...whew....I'm just glad I'm done. It's been on XXXXy ride.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

All this great wisdom from a group that signed a contract to get pay raises, buy new aircraft...

Just to clarify, there was never any real incentive for Astar to "buy new aircraft" The contract simply required them to pay a token amount ($100,000 per year/per acft) to the pilots if they didn't. The actual amount was only a fraction of one-percent of the annual payroll, the hourly rates of which were already about 15% behind UPS and FedEx. Astar pilots had, in effect, been duped into bankrolling the company's "penalties" for not re-fleeting and upgrading.

Even then, DHL/Astar almost certainly knew they wouldn't be "paying" those penalties beyond the second year of the contract, as the desire to be rid of Astar was being discussed by DPWN even while the contract was being negotiated. All they needed was to be rid of that pesky "Scope Clause..."

I say again...there was NO incentive to "buy new aircraft," just a bunch of gobbledy-gook words on a page that must have made somebody feel good, sometime. That's ALL.

 

[erichartmann]

I agree with nite here. Clearly we made a tactical error in trying to retain what had been DHL/AStar flying for the last 25yrs by actually trying to enforce our scope clause. Clearly the only way to achieve holding onto/taking over of DHL flying was through a concessionary contract.

But just as a point of order, would anyone here who made the claim that A. Our last contract was "concessionary", because it didn't include "retro pay"...or
B. That 1224 was simply negotiating lower pay in order to secure NON-DHL flying.
or C. That we began a "race to the bottom" by negotiating lower pay rates to secure 767 flying.

wanna step up and take a bow for making those "claims" while actually DOING those very things you claimed AStar pilots were doing? I mean, since the veil is clearly off, you might as well just admit it.

Between the whole "threeway" goin on at ABX and cabotage probably right around the corner...whew....I'm just glad I'm done. It's been on XXXXy ride.

Much has changed since all of this started. Most, if not all of us expected to "hold the line" in our contract negotiations. That all came to an end with DHL's May announcement. I seem to recall you reaching agreement on your contract prior to that announcement. From May forward we were in the same boat as most of your APLA peers; i.e. negotiating a concessionary agreement to lower our employer's costs in hopes of retaining enough business to keep the company afloat and retain (some) jobs. Given DHL's accelerating downward momentum this was difficult at best, but necessary. Sadly, more than half of our peers in the ABX portion of 1224 lost their jobs, at did 9/10's of the company's other employees. The majority of them have no realistic hope of ever getting those jobs back.

A realistic unbiased look would show we were forced by circumstances beyond our control to adjust our goals and expectations.

 

[flyinboxes]

Just to clarify, there was never any real incentive for Astar to "buy new aircraft" The contract simply required them to pay a token amount ($100,000 per year/per acft) to the pilots if they didn't. The actual amount was only a fraction of one-percent of the annual payroll, the hourly rates of which were already about 15% behind UPS and FedEx. Astar pilots had, in effect, been duped into bankrolling the company's "penalties" for not re-fleeting and upgrading.

Even then, DHL/Astar almost certainly knew they wouldn't be "paying" those penalties beyond the second year of the contract, as the desire to be rid of Astar was being discussed by DPWN even while the contract was being negotiated. All they needed was to be rid of that pesky "Scope Clause..."

I say again...there was NO incentive to "buy new aircraft," just a bunch of gobbledy-gook words on a page that must have made somebody feel good, sometime. That's ALL.

I actually agree with whistlin for the first time in my life. We all new it wasn't much but it was something. Negotiations were long and hard and the pressure was taking its toll. Finally we had a deal, a good one. Good raises, good work rules etc. We gave up nothing. DHL said hurry, we need to get this done. We need to move forward all the while negotiating like the scum they are behind our backs with UPS. We played the cards we were dealt. We played fair and by the rules. They did not. They are liars, we are not. We coould never have known. They had a tank, we had a knife. I am glad to never work for them again.

 

[AV8OR]

Much has changed since all of this started. Most, if not all of us expected to "hold the line" in our contract negotiations. That all came to an end with DHL's May announcement. I seem to recall you reaching agreement on your contract prior to that announcement. From May forward we were in the same boat as most of your APLA peers; i.e. negotiating a concessionary agreement to lower our employer's costs in hopes of retaining enough business to keep the company afloat and retain (some) jobs. Given DHL's accelerating downward momentum this was difficult at best, but necessary. Sadly, more than half of our peers in the ABX portion of 1224 lost their jobs, at did 9/10's of the company's other employees. The majority of them have no realistic hope of ever getting those jobs back.

A realistic unbiased look would show we were forced by circumstances beyond our control to adjust our goals and expectations.

MMmm but then, the UPS deal fell apart, and DHL's been losing 1Billion a year for 5 years here. Plus, they apparently have the money to spend on brand new 767ER's and pilot cost is the least of their financial woes. I'm thinkin it had more to do with undercutting AStar and bein worried about the others under the ATSG umbrella and Atlas/Polar than the May announcement.

Eh, its a moot point. Whether it was scope protection, or "concessionary" bargaining, it's always been "OK" if 1224 does it. Like I said....it's kinda nice to tap out and watch somebody else "deal" with DHL for a while. Good luck. Yall are gonna need it.

 

[shooter]

...Like I said....it's kinda nice to tap out and watch somebody else "deal" with DHL for a while. Good luck. Yall are gonna need it.

I don't know how much DHL ABX will be dealing with when it comes to negotiations. ABX is just another ACMI in the DHL network. Like I said, the days of "your" DHL and ABX's Airborne Express are long gone. And as Eric was saying, this line you all keep referring to is no longer an "in network" line. It has been redrawn in the ACMI sand.

It is all German DHL freight, the domestic freight has been abandoned. No matter how you try and slice it up, it went down hill for "your" DHL and Airborne when the deutschmark bought the Americans out and the workers are left holding the bag.