ABX Air to Acquire CHI

[penguin22]

Well, unfortunately, the scope clause may not cover this type of acquisition. In a way, ABX was also just sold/bought because it is now owned by a holding company, which also bought two more airlines.

regardless of hvy's analysis of our scope, here's the relevant paragraph:

1. Successor Transactions
a. This Agreement shall be binding upon any successor, assign, assignee, transferee, administrator, executor and/or trustee (a “Successor”) of the Company resulting in any transaction that involves: (1) a transfer (in a single transaction or in related multi-step transactions) to a Successor of ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities and/or assets of the Company (hereinafter “Complete Transaction”); or (2) transfer to a Successor of ownership and/or control of a portion of the
Company’s assets in a Substantial Asset Sale (hereinafter “Partial Transaction”).

(underline added)

the equity securities get transferred to ABX Holdings, so scope flows through to ABX Holdings.

 

[hvydriver]

regardless of hvy's analysis of our scope, here's the relevant paragraph:

1. Successor Transactions
a. This Agreement shall be binding upon any successor, assign, assignee, transferee, administrator, executor and/or trustee (a “Successor”) of the Company resulting in any transaction that involves: (1) a transfer (in a single transaction or in related multi-step transactions) to a Successor of ownership or control of all or substantially all of the equity securities and/or assets of the Company (hereinafter “Complete Transaction”); or (2) transfer to a Successor of ownership and/or control of a portion of the
Company’s assets in a Substantial Asset Sale (hereinafter “Partial Transaction”).

(underline added)

the equity securities get transferred to ABX Holdings, so scope flows through to ABX Holdings.

Yep, we saw that before. Good luck with that. Seriously.

 

[AV8OR]

AV8OR has done a great job lately of showing us all the narrow-minded arrogance of ALPA 017.

They see the only solution to a scope grievance is to file injunctions to shut down the other airline and take their jobs. The only people on here claiming thats what we'll do is Astar pilots. Not one ABX pilot has.

Not quite true peng.....what I said was, that I have asked the question multiple times, of yall,.... if you, 1224, believed your scope clause had been violated, and, by filing a grievance and winning, it might negatively affect another pilot groups jobs, would 1224's position be to not file the grievance because the higher priority is to, in the words of one of your own a couple of posts back, "make friends"?

I haven't said yall would file a scope grievance. I just wondered, given that the position stated was that we shouldn't have filed, not because it wasn't true, but because it wasn't nice, would 1224 file one. It may end up being a moot point. Yall my all just get together famously and show us Astar boys how it's done. But since the announcements all of two days old, and there's already a pretty good discussion about your scope clause pasted by 1224 pilots on here, it ought to be interesting, if the shoe ends up on the other foot over at 1224.

So, yall let me know how that olive branch of, "we won't have to file a scope grievance, cause we're gonna let the ATI and CAC guys get to be on our seniority list" works out. More power to ya.

 

[TWA]

the equity securities get transferred to ABX Holdings, so scope flows through to ABX Holdings.

Ok, that makes sense. Here's another question though, what if ATI and CCI both have the same wording in their contracts? Who prevails?

 

[SkyMiles]

hvy "Our scope language was even tighter than yours is" I dont know if it is or not, that is why I posted "We just have to hope that the money spent on our scope attorney was worth it and somehow he managed to weave a little strength into the contract language pertaining to these matters." and got slammed/flamed by a fellow astar pilot. Quite frankly I went to the astar site and read the "entire scope provision" you have on the site and, like I said I am no lawyer, but ours does have many more provsions than your does. I dont know if what you have on your site is the entire scope I am trying to compare apples to apples. I do have a question. Why are do you and AV8 seem so against and hostile towards this? I have been at a company that had many affiliates doing the same job under different contracts. If we are the same company why is wanting to be under one set of work rules so bad? Being pro labor that is the way it should be. A company should not be able to play its own employees (the ones that actually do the work and make the company work) against each other. Contrary to to what upper management thinks, those of us on the front lines are what makes the company. What is your problem with that?

 

[SkyMiles]

TWA that is a great question

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

......... because the higher priority is to, in the words of one of your own a couple of posts back, "make friends"?............

.........I haven't said yall would file a scope grievance. I just wondered, given that the position stated was that we shouldn't have filed, not because it wasn't true, but because it wasn't nice.........

If it's me you're referencing, then it's out of context. Astar has been reduced to the level of an AMCI carrier by virtue of corporate slight of hand and filing a lawsuit to effectively shut down ABX was very short sighted to the point of being stupid - doing little to further your cause. I hope 1224 handles it better.

 

[hvydriver]

SM,

I'm not hostile toward it at all. I'm serious, I hope you guys are able to cobble together something. However, given the current political landscape in this country, I don't think you'll succeed in bringing all 3 carriers under one CBA. Hete/Fox have been very clever in their presentation of this deal so far. I'll be curious to see what Lynn has to say about this after she's had time to look it all over.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

We on this side of the cornfield also had a scope clause, like yours rendered invalid by the act of moving companies into companies. It's an unpalatable truth that you lost your scope when DHL purchased ABX and spun off the airline side of the operation. The win/win scenario isn't part of the Alpa/Astar culture is it? It doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

 

[erichartmann]

Not quite true peng.....what I said was, that I have asked the question multiple times, of yall,.... if you, 1224, believed your scope clause had been violated, and, by filing a grievance and winning, it might negatively affect another pilot groups jobs, would 1224's position be to not file the grievance because the higher priority is to, in the words of one of your own a couple of posts back, "make friends"?

I haven't said yall would file a scope grievance. I just wondered, given that the position stated was that we shouldn't have filed, not because it wasn't true, but because it wasn't nice, would 1224 file one. It may end up being a moot point. Yall my all just get together famously and show us Astar boys how it's done. But since the announcements all of two days old, and there's already a pretty good discussion about your scope clause pasted by 1224 pilots on here, it ought to be interesting, if the shoe ends up on the other foot over at 1224.

So, yall let me know how that olive branch of, "we won't have to file a scope grievance, cause we're gonna let the ATI and CAC guys get to be on our seniority list" works out. More power to ya.

My position has always been your claimed scope was rendered invalid by the legal seperation (i.e. spin off as a seperate privately held company) of the former DHL Airways, now Astar, from DHL. I believe your legal analysis was faulty. Further, it was dangerous, as events have proven. I suspect you reacted emotionally rather rationally. It wan't a matter of being "nice", it was a matter of being smart. You should not have filed.

 

[AV8OR]

My position has always been your claimed scope was rendered invalid by the legal seperation (i.e. spin off as a seperate privately held company) of the former DHL Airways, now Astar, from DHL. I believe your legal analysis was faulty. Further, it was dangerous, as events have proven. I suspect you reacted emotionally rather rationally. It wan't a matter of being "nice", it was a matter of being smart. You should not have filed.

That, my friend, remains to be seen. But I still think it's pretty neat we agree on something....progress no?

 

[C-141/C-5]

Gentleman, I'm an ABX hopeful (just interviewed). I'm scared crazy and excited about this recent news. I agree that if this goes down the pilots need to be one to eliminate any whipsawing tactics.
However, CHI has been operating ATI and Capital as separate airlines with different pay, rules, etc. It seems(conference call) as if ABX Holdings wants to do the same except add ABX Air Inc. in the mix. During the conference call it was repeatedly stated that Joe wanted to learn from CHI. CHI has a company ( which looks for new routes and allocates assets to companies to make it work.)

Why would they ever allocate any new growth to ABX when it probably is more expensive(labor)?

Could this be a tactic to slowly phase out ABX Air Inc.?

It concerns me that ABX did not even tell DHL about this

What is this (ABX Air’s $92.3 million note payable to DHL. )?

Almost sounds like ABX is creating an exit strategy from DHL

By creating ABX holdings I think what happened was ABX depreciated all the assets for all 3 airlines or wrote them off in the taxes, so someone got real rich.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to make a good decision for my future and ABX was IDEAL (Location, Pay, Outlook). I still think that this could be HUGE, but there needs to be clear communication between all companies and issues worked out.

 

[erichartmann]

That, my friend, remains to be seen. But I still think it's pretty neat we agree on something....progress no?

Progress? Well,.... perhaps. I was never one who took a position that ABX was entitled to the former Airborne freight just becasue we had been flying it. My arguement always revolved around the validity of your claim. You are correct in that it remains to be seen if my opinion on the validity of you scope claim is correct.

I think the direction the case has taken is prima facie evidence that your choice to file was dangerous. I guess one could take the position that resolving the potential problem of a NLRB vs NMB case had to be done sooner or later.

I also felt that it was dangerous (to ABX) and disengenous of you to claim (if your claim was upheld) a judge or arbitrator would not order DHL to cease doing business with ABX. What any of us might think is a fair and reasonable settlement (or at least what you claim to think is one) has nothing to do with how those worthies might rule. It would have been altogether to easy for them to order other solutions which would not have had an adverse impact on DHL's ability to do business in the USA and would have been very detrimental to the career prospects of the ABX pilots.

 

[erichartmann]

quote=C-141/C-5;1446970]
However, CHI has been operating ATI and Capital as separate airlines with different pay, rules, etc. It seems(conference call) as if ABX Holdings wants to do the same except add ABX Air Inc. in the mix. During the conference call it was repeatedly stated that Joe wanted to learn from CHI. CHI has a company ( which looks for new routes and allocates assets to companies to make it work.)

Why would they ever allocate any new growth to ABX when it probably is more expensive(labor)?

Could this be a tactic to slowly phase out ABX Air Inc.?

It concerns me that ABX did not even tell DHL about this

What is this (ABX Air’s $92.3 million note payable to DHL. )?

Almost sounds like ABX is creating an exit strategy from DHL

By creating ABX holdings I think what happened was ABX depreciated all the assets for all 3 airlines or wrote them off in the taxes, so someone got real rich.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to make a good decision for my future and ABX was IDEAL (Location, Pay, Outlook). I still think that this could be HUGE, but there needs to be clear communication between all companies and issues worked out.[/quote]

Good questions.

Why would they ever allocate any new growth to ABX when it probably is more expensive(labor)?

They probably won’t if they can find a way not to unless they can cut our pay. This is the single biggest reason ABX’s pilots need to be proactive in uniting the groups and preventing the whipsawing.

Could this be a tactic to slowly phase out ABX Air Inc.?

Yes, it could be.

It concerns me that ABX did not even tell DHL about this

ABX is a publicly traded company. There are SEC rules about disclosure as related to insider trading. Further, ABX has no obligation to inform DHL prior to the announcement. It might even get into problems with control under US law.

What is this (ABX Air’s $92.3 million note payable to DHL.

That was part of the original spin-off deal when we were separated from Airborne as DHL bought Airborne. I’m not sure if I remember correctly but I think it was to provide us with operating capital after the spin-off.

Almost sounds like ABX is creating an exit strategy from DHL

Possibly. I don’t think that is the intent though. It is more of a safety net, gives us some leverage. Prior to this deal we were largely at the mercy of DHL. They were by far our largest customer, and the profit margins were very slim. While they are still our largest customer, we are not quite as dependant on them now.

 

[shooter]

Gentleman, I'm an ABX hopeful (just interviewed). I'm scared crazy and excited about this recent news. I agree that if this goes down the pilots need to be one to eliminate any whipsawing tactics.
However, CHI has been operating ATI and Capital as separate airlines with different pay, rules, etc. It seems(conference call) as if ABX Holdings wants to do the same except add ABX Air Inc. in the mix. During the conference call it was repeatedly stated that Joe wanted to learn from CHI. CHI has a company ( which looks for new routes and allocates assets to companies to make it work.)

Why would they ever allocate any new growth to ABX when it probably is more expensive(labor)?

Could this be a tactic to slowly phase out ABX Air Inc.?

It concerns me that ABX did not even tell DHL about this

What is this (ABX Air’s $92.3 million note payable to DHL. )?

Almost sounds like ABX is creating an exit strategy from DHL

By creating ABX holdings I think what happened was ABX depreciated all the assets for all 3 airlines or wrote them off in the taxes, so someone got real rich.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to make a good decision for my future and ABX was IDEAL (Location, Pay, Outlook). I still think that this could be HUGE, but there needs to be clear communication between all companies and issues worked out.

ABX did tell DHL prior to the public release. It was told to us in the hangar talks that was part of the delay and schedule conflict. It was to meet in Plantation to give them advanced notice. Don't believe all the DHL hates ABX talk you hear from Astar. DHL is a company that only cares about DHL. While you can see that the DHL people used to work with the Astar people by better treatment, DHL's parent company does not have that cord problem.

ABX cares about DHL business and does what it should for it. Sure you don't see the butt kissing like Astar and DHL share but if it were as bad as some make it sound DHL would not be fighting Astar on this whole scope thing. They would just give it to Astar if they were that deep in bed together and not waste all this money fighting it. As long as ABX provides the superior service we are known for, we should always be part of the DHL network. Even if Astar wants to kill us off, it's just not their call.

Hope you get a class and look forward to working w/you.:beer:

p.s. I forgot to add: That the CC did say they were going to keep the airlines separate at this time and it may remain so for ever. But when they talk about reducing costs that is hard to do by pitting the pilots against on another if they all work together (if possible) like many talk about on this board. My guess is the reduction of the fat on the top operating structures of all the companies. There is just a lot of double/triple jobs that can be streamlined. At least thats how I looked at it so take that for what its worth. The pilots fate truly does lie in the hands of the pilots of the 3 groups. I'm the one that should be worried more so than any crew.:erm:

 

[rotor&wing]

Wow shootie, looks like you need another round of that anger management class huh?

 

[shooter]

Wow shootie, looks like you need another round of that anger management class huh?

me? where were you? it was good to see rest of your family show up though.

now, you want to try and explain what your demented feeble mind is try to extrude from my last post? Unless you want to just want to fight, I'm always game for that. But then you know that don't you anger buddy?

 

[rotor&wing]

Calm down shootie.......take a deep breath. Really, try the decafe stuff, it helps.

 

[shooter]

Calm down shootie.......take a deep breath. Really, try the decafe stuff, it helps.

back at ya!

 

[nitefr8dog]

ABX did tell DHL prior to the public release. It was told to us in the hangar talks that was part of the delay and schedule conflict. It was to meet in Plantation to give them advanced notice. Don't believe all the DHL hates ABX talk you hear from Astar. DHL is a company that only cares about DHL. While you can see that the DHL people used to work with the Astar people by better treatment, DHL's parent company does not have that cord problem.

ABX cares about DHL business and does what it should for it. Sure you don't see the butt kissing like Astar and DHL share but if it were as bad as some make it sound DHL would not be fighting Astar on this whole scope thing. They would just give it to Astar if they were that deep in bed together and not waste all this money fighting it. As long as ABX provides the superior service we are known for, we should always be part of the DHL network. Even if Astar wants to kill us off, it's just not their call.

Hope you get a class and look forward to working w/you.:beer:

p.s. I forgot to add: That the CC did say they were going to keep the airlines separate at this time and it may remain so for ever. But when they talk about reducing costs that is hard to do by pitting the pilots against on another if they all work together (if possible) like many talk about on this board. My guess is the reduction of the fat on the top operating structures of all the companies. There is just a lot of double/triple jobs that can be streamlined. At least thats how I looked at it so take that for what its worth. The pilots fate truly does lie in the hands of the pilots of the 3 groups. I'm the one that should be worried more so than any crew.:erm:

Good post! You are right on target.