ABX 1224 I'm confused......

[niteflyr1]

I am concerned because you are lowering the bar. I am not happy about it and neither is the rest of the industry. We have every right to question it and discuss it because it affects us all in the long run. In spite of what you might believe your decisions as a pilot group affect many many people in this industry. You will be called out on it here and many other places.

What the ABX pilots were forced to agree to is a product of what's wrong in this industry, not the cause of it. As long as management can keep us fighting each other, they don't have to.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

What the ABX pilots were forced to agree to is a product of what's wrong in this industry, not the cause of it. As long as management can keep us fighting each other, they don't have to.

Amen, brother!

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

While we are at it, and this is for anyone out there. Could someone name One Single commitment DHL has signed and then honored?

How about the CBA signed in March of 2008? As far as I can tell, everything DHL is doing, and not doing, is permissable under that agreement. They seem to be following it pretty scrupulously.

Old contract = Jobs for life
New contract = Jobs until March, 2010 + a raise and modest signing bonus

Seemed like a no-brainer to me.

"The fault, Dear Brutus, is not in our stars; but in ourselves..."

 

[fob727]

How about the CBA signed in March of 2008? As far as I can tell, everything DHL is doing, and not doing, is permissable under that agreement. They seem to be following it pretty scrupulously.

Old contract = Jobs for life
New contract = Jobs until March, 2010 + a raise and modest signing bonus

Seemed like a no-brainer to me.

"The fault, Dear Brutus, is not in our stars; but in ourselves..."

Your "no-brainers" put you on the street.

 

[flyinboxes]

What the ABX pilots were forced to agree to is a product of what's wrong in this industry, not the cause of it. As long as management can keep us fighting each other, they don't have to.

The ABX pilots weren't forced to agree to anything. And that my friend is the problem with this industry.

 

[rotor&wing]

Seemed like a no-brainer to me.

Wasn't that the same term the FAA used when they revoked your certificate?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Your "no-brainers" put you on the street.

Do not speak of that which you do not know. Tell us instead what put you on the street? At least your hostages died on the field of battle and facing the enemy, not as a result of a self-inflicted (and fatal) wound to the foot.

The ABX pilots weren't forced to agree to anything. And that my friend is the problem with this industry.

The problem, FB, is that ABX pilots are being "forced"...not by management, but by circumstances and the changing tides of our industry. Over the last 2 years it's become apparent that there are more pilots, more airplanes, and more ACMI carriers out there than are presently needed. The decision by DHL to close down Astar hasn't resulted in any reduction of service. If anything, it will most likely bring down the cost of acquiring such service. At this point, ABX is wisely doing whatever it takes to stay in the game. When the market for their services improves, I'm sure they (both management and pilots) will seek to increase their stake in that game. Joe Hete may not be thrilled with a profit margin of 1.5%, but it's better than having those airplanes parked...WAY better.

The same could be said of a $100,000/yr 727 Captain vs. an unemployed one.

FedEx and UPS crewmembers have agreed to work rule changes and reduced BLG's in order to preserve as many jobs as possible. Are they also "lowering the bar," or are they demonstrating to management their solidarity and committment to each other, and to their cause?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Wasn't that the same term the FAA used when they revoked your certificate?

I would expect that from a guy with the words " == TrueValue == " tattooed across his forehead.

As usual, R&W, you never let the fact that you don't know Jack-$hit about something keep you from expressing an opinion about it.

Now, back into the drawer with you. Hurry, hurry! The screwdrivers are starting to miss you!

 

[fob727]

Do not speak of that which you do not know. Tell us instead what put you on the street? At least your hostages died on the field of battle and facing the enemy, not as a result of a self-inflicted (and fatal) wound to the foot.

The problem, FB, is that ABX pilots are being "forced"...not by management, but by circumstances and the changing tides of our industry. Over the last 2 years it's become apparent that there are more pilots, more airplanes, and more ACMI carriers out there than are presently needed. The decision by DHL to close down Astar hasn't resulted in any reduction of service. If anything, it will most likely bring down the cost of acquiring such service. At this point, ABX is wisely doing whatever it takes to stay in the game. When the market for their services improves, I'm sure they (both management and pilots) will seek to increase their stake in that game. Joe Hete may not be thrilled with a profit margin of 1.5%, but it's better than having those airplanes parked...WAY better.

The same could be said of a $100,000/yr 727 Captain vs. an unemployed one.

FedEx and UPS crewmembers have agreed to work rule changes and reduced BLG's in order to preserve as many jobs as possible. Are they also "lowering the bar," or are they demonstrating to management their solidarity and committment to each other, and to their cause?

Jimbo, I'm not sure I really understand your post. I don't believe you do either.

Are you actually comparing what's going on at ABX to the circumstances at FDX and UPS? That's like saying it's OK for the pilots at RAH to make
$37 hr. because the can make up for it by working more. I thought you were brighter than that.

I guess not.

 

[AV8OR]

One consistent truth promoted on this board...in these threads.....whatever 1224 does to protect or gain jobs for 1224 (concessions, enforcing scope, side letters that unilaterally affect another ATSG pilot group)...it's ALWAYS justified because they're simply adapting to market conditions. If anybody else is even RUMORED to do it....they're lowering the bar and are the scum of the earth.

I think the reason AStar guys morbidly chide guys like nite is because of the absolute arrogance and hypocrisy of SOME at 1224 who would jump on every message board they can find and call anyone else doing what they were doin scabs....etc.

Honestly, we all know it's cut throat. The whole "can't we all just get along" "there's plenty of flying for everybody" " let's all get together and have Thanksiving dinner" was BS right out of the gate. ALPA "tried" to enforce our scope. Rightly so. Anybody at AStar who ever thought AStar and 1224 were gonna be buds after that was just pi$$in up a rope! We sacrificed our scope for what we thought was a guarantee and holding the bar, got railroaded. ABX doesn't wanna have that happen to them (good luck with that) so they gave in to concessions. That simple. The only issue I have is for those who criticized US, for ALLEGEDLY doin the same thing are now ACTUALLY doing it!

It was a knife fight from the beginning. We lost. They "won". Personally, as far as the "industry" goes, I'd like to see all the ATSG boys pull together and put their foot squarely on the neck of Hete and Appel, but that prob aint gonna happen as long as 1224 tries to bully the other two ATSG pilot groups into submission to whatever they deem the best interest of 1224. I'd rather be on the street than have to put up with that shizzle.

AStar guys.....do you really think your ever gonna get nite to admit that? Come on.

 

[rotor&wing]

As usual, R&W, you never let the fact that you don't know Jack-$hit about something keep you from expressing an opinion about it.

FACT: Your ATP was revoked by the FAA after observing a line check with you as Captain.

FACT: Without a certificate you were terminated employment with Astar.

FACT: This was not your first termination from the company.

 

[nitefr8dog]

One consistent truth promoted on this board...in these threads.....whatever 1224 does to protect or gain jobs for 1224 (concessions, enforcing scope, side letters that unilaterally affect another ATSG pilot group)...it's ALWAYS justified because they're simply adapting to market conditions. If anybody else is even RUMORED to do it....they're lowering the bar and are the scum of the earth.

I think the reason AStar guys morbidly chide guys like nite is because of the absolute arrogance and hypocrisy of SOME at 1224 who would jump on every message board they can find and call anyone else doing what they were doin scabs....etc.

Honestly, we all know it's cut throat. The whole "can't we all just get along" "there's plenty of flying for everybody" " let's all get together and have Thanksiving dinner" was BS right out of the gate. ALPA "tried" to enforce our scope. Rightly so. Anybody at AStar who ever thought AStar and 1224 were gonna be buds after that was just pi$$in up a rope! We sacrificed our scope for what we thought was a guarantee and holding the bar, got railroaded. ABX doesn't wanna have that happen to them (good luck with that) so they gave in to concessions. That simple. The only issue I have is for those who criticized US, for ALLEGEDLY doin the same thing are now ACTUALLY doing it!

It was a knife fight from the beginning. We lost. They "won". Personally, as far as the "industry" goes, I'd like to see all the ATSG boys pull together and put their foot squarely on the neck of Hete and Appel, but that prob aint gonna happen as long as 1224 tries to bully the other two ATSG pilot groups into submission to whatever they deem the best interest of 1224. I'd rather be on the street than have to put up with that shizzle.

AStar guys.....do you really think your ever gonna get nite to admit that? Come on.

Ah come on aren't we having fun!

 

[hvydriver]

Ah come on aren't we having fun!

It seems the Germans didn't want to play ball with Uncle Joe.

 

[fob727]

How did the poster on another board put it....."broke it off in our farfignugin". Hilarious...the post , anyways.

Sorry, boys, but you should have expected that from DHL.

 

[nitefr8dog]

It seems the Germans didn't want to play ball with Uncle Joe.

You do not really believe that do you? Look around the ramp 80% percent of the aircraft on the CVG ramp fall under the ATSG umbrella. Pilots take all this personally ABX/DHL do not. I think DHL has know the contract numbers all the time. One issue DHL wants all the freighters soon to be 34 for the domestic market. Joe will never put all his 767 eggs in one basket again.The message on the other board is way different than the 1224 board time will tell. As for me I would like to see the DHL flying go away not worth the trouble for what they are willing to pay! But AV8OR, Hvy and Fob are the ones with the crystal ball we shall see. (I say a couple of weeks)

 

[hvydriver]

You do not really believe that do you? Look around the ramp 80% percent of the aircraft on the CVG ramp fall under the ATSG umbrella. Pilots take all this personally ABX/DHL do not. I think DHL has know the contract numbers all the time. One issue DHL wants all the freighters soon to be 34 for the domestic market. Joe will never put all his 767 eggs in one basket again.The message on the other board is way different than the 1224 board time will tell. As for me I would like to see the DHL flying go away not worth the trouble for what they are willing to pay! But AV8OR, Hvy and Fob are the ones with the crystal ball we shall see. (I say a couple of weeks)

It would seem I do believe that nite, since I said it. I do believe though that the deal breaker (unless Joe pulls another one out of the fire again) is that DHL wants possession of all of ABX's 767 fleet. For an ACMI carrier, that would not be a good thing. I would be curious to know if they thought there was a chance that Hete would agree to it, or if they figured he'd walk away from the deal once they tossed that requirement out there. Deliberate sabotage, if you will.

 

[fob727]

You do not really believe that do you? Look around the ramp 80% percent of the aircraft on the CVG ramp fall under the ATSG umbrella. Pilots take all this personally ABX/DHL do not. I think DHL has know the contract numbers all the time. One issue DHL wants all the freighters soon to be 34 for the domestic market. Joe will never put all his 767 eggs in one basket again.The message on the other board is way different than the 1224 board time will tell. As for me I would like to see the DHL flying go away not worth the trouble for what they are willing to pay! But AV8OR, Hvy and Fob are the ones with the crystal ball we shall see. (I say a couple of weeks)

Nitey, I don't profess to having a crystal ball; but one thing I do have is the ability to write with punctuation. I think I got that in the third grade.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

FACT: Your ATP was revoked by the FAA after observing a line check with you as Captain.

FACT: Without a certificate you were terminated employment with Astar.

FACT: This was not your first termination from the company.

WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG.

Why do I feel like I'm engaging in a dialogue with a Taiwan-made claw-hammer with a split wooden handle, or a member of the Heavens' Gate cult? Maybe if you had some FACTUAL knowledge of what you're talking about, we could....

Oh never mind, there's no use arguing over it. The facts be damned, you're going to believe what you want to believe, and to bring as many other nit-wits along with you as possible.

If you don't mind, I do have a few questions for you;

1) DHL has never, to anybody's knowledge, re-hired anybody who's voluntarily quit, much less been fired. Why would they do that, UNLESS a Federal Arbitrator (or one of DHL's high-zoot law firms) indicated to them that it was in their best interest to do so?

2) Why do you care?

3) Can you guys hop a ride on any old comet, or does it have to be Hale-Bopp?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Are you actually comparing what's going on at ABX to the circumstances at FDX and UPS? That's like saying it's OK for the pilots at RAH to make $37 hr. because the can make up for it by working more.

I don't know enough about what's going on at RAH to comment, but comparing "what's going on at ABX to UPS and FedEx?" Absolutely! They're all responding to changes in the market and in the economy. Even though FedEx and UPS actually made money last year, both pilot groups were asked to choose between concessions and job cuts. Both groups (wisely) chose concessions. It sent the management of both companies a strong message, but more importantly, it was the right thing to do.

ABX is facing the same dilemma, with one significant difference...they're an ACMI carrier. Where the cut-off point for FedEx and UPS wages is that where the company suspends service because it's no longer profitable, the cut-off point for ABX wages is that where DHL seeks another carrier to operate that service. Joe Hete may be a bastard and an SOB, but his decision not to become DHL's lap-dog, and to invest in 767's whether DHL paid for them or not is what's keeping that company alive.

If I were an ABX'er, I'd be doing whatever it took to stay in the game for now, and wait until the economy recovers to make my move. In 3-4 years DHL's volume will be back to what it was a few years ago, crude oil prices will be back to what they were a few years ago, 767's will be the gold-standard for ACMI carriers, and ABX pilots will be in a much better position to negotiate a new contract.

See, you were correct the first time. I AM brighter than you thought.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Nitey, I don't profess to having a crystal ball; but one thing I do have is the ability to write with punctuation. I think I got that in the third grade.

Thats the best you've got! Weak!

 

[rotor&wing]

If you don't mind, I do have a few questions for you;

1) DHL has never, to anybody's knowledge, re-hired anybody who's voluntarily quit, much less been fired. Why would they do that, UNLESS a Federal Arbitrator (or one of DHL's high-zoot law firms) indicated to them that it was in their best interest to do so?

2) Why do you care?

3) Can you guys hop a ride on any old comet, or does it have to be Hale-Bopp?

1) Yes they have. You have no "knowledge" of internal operations because you're not an employee or have been for years even though you continue to pretend you are.

2) Because I'm sick and tired of your inane tirades against a company that FIRED you due to your incompetence as a pilot. That is a well known fact Jim and by getting on web boards and trying to pretend it didn't happen just shows how out of touch with reality you are. Just go to FAA.GOV and type in your name under airman search and see what comes back. And there are plenty of us there that remember the night the FAA revoked your certificate after the line check.

 

[AV8OR]

Yall let us know if ya need to borrow the rat. I'm guessin ya won't though.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

there are plenty of us there that remember the night the FAA revoked your certificate after the line check.

Wait a minute...did you say "line check?"

If a guy is taking a "line check," that means he's passed recurrent, passed LOFT, and if he's returning from a LOA, passed IOE.

If the FAA observed the recurrent and LOFT and didn't have any squawks, it's highly unlikely that there was any "incompetence" evidenced by that crew, especially the Captain. Like I said, you're gonna believe what you want to believe, especially if it moves you up a number on the seniority list.

If you're "tired of my tirades" stop reading them. Just press the "block" feature. That's what I do.

Who was the guy who got hired back? Was this in the last 20 years or so? Initials and title will do.

 

[Airbus300]

Who was the guy who got hired back? Was this in the last 20 years or so? Initials and title will do.[/QUOTE]

P.G. Initial hire date 1989 then again in 1995.
Another guy (H.W.) who left DHL Airways to go to USAIR, got furloughed, then was rehired back to Astar in 2005/2006??? Ran a crashpad, and returned to USAir when they recalled...

 

[rotor&wing]

Who was the guy who got hired back? Was this in the last 20 years or so? Initials and title will do.

P.G. Initial hire date 1989 then again in 1995.
Another guy (H.W.) who left DHL Airways to go to USAIR, got furloughed, then was rehired back to Astar in 2005/2006??? Ran a crashpad, and returned to USAir when they recalled...[/QUOTE]

Also M.L.