ABX 1224 how low will you go?

[niteflyr1]

Seems to me this is a tremendous benefit for any pilot on anyone's seniority list that is an ATSG owned company. I think ATI and Cappy should negotiate the same in their next contract. Why hire off of the street if any ATSG company's pilot is on furlough? Better yet, 1 airline 1 pilot list, stop the whipsawing.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I understand the furloughed part...Quit was a poor choice of words..I think I was tired and irritated at the time...What I meant to say is that I have never seen a FURLOUGHED PILOT retaining his seniority when being hired by a seperate company with a different union. This side letter was done "behind the curtain" without any conversation between ABX And ATI EXCO's and MEC's.The intent of this letter was not just to put out of work pilots back in a seat,but in a seat with a safety cushion.
I can see Mr.Hete telling Mr. Hobson that FULOUGHED ABX PILOTS should have priority over "off the street" applicants. But telling us that new hire ABX PILOTS have a right to make more money and benefits than recently recalled ATI PILOTS or "off the street" new hires is another story!
I also agree that we are dealing with Mr. Hete on our new contract, but I don't think he can change the hiring, pay, and seniority policies that are currently in our contract. If he can do that,none of our contracts,yours included, are worth the paper they are written on.

When I hired at ABX I was on furlough from 2 airlines (I was only at airline #2 for six mo) I was called back to the 2nd airline 2 years later. I chose to stay at ABX. We have 12 to 15 crew members who were furloughed or panicked and left when the DHL wheels came off. About half were asked to come back on the Oct 15th recall. A few are senior to me and can come in as captains and push me down...it is what it is. I agree JH cannot change anything in your contract so I am to believe your contact has a provision that no furloughed pilots can be hired or the union gets to decide who management can hire? I might raise the B.S. flag on that!

 

[Flyer8]

We have hired lots of furloughed pilots in the past and will continue to do so in the future, but they do not bring their seniority from another company with them. They start at the bottom. We have no problem with who the company hires..That's up to them. However, seniority within the company is a function of the contract..

 

[niteflyr1]

We have hired lots of furloughed pilots in the past and will continue to do so in the future, but they do not bring their seniority from another company with them. They start at the bottom. We have no problem with who the company hires..That's up to them. However, seniority within the company is a function of the contract..

The way I understand the agreement, they would indeed go to the bottom of the seniority list, but keep their longevity for pay and benefits.

 

[nitefr8dog]

The way I understand the agreement, they would indeed go to the bottom of the seniority list, but keep their longevity for pay and benefits.

Exactly!, seems like alot of heartburn over a few guys just trying to get a job.

 

[Flyer8]

When we hire furloughed pilots, they start at the bottom for everything. Bidding seniority,vacation accrual,pay, sick days,etc. This is the point I am trying make..Why would an ABX pilot expect to make twice as much money,keep his vacation,sick days, etc, over a pilot who was hired while on furlough from Continental? Neither one has ever worked for ATI.Or do you think the Continental pilot should keep all his former entilements, too..?
We are always hoping to provide jobs for furloughed pilots and we do feel the pain being furloughed brings with it..We have had our share of furloughs at ATI. We just object to another company telling us how we will pay and determine seniority within our own company. Hiring yes...Special treatment...no...
And as stated earlier,this was not negotiated with ATI..This was a blind side shot that was done by 1224 and Mr Hete...1224 has never negotiated anything with ATI..They do not communicate and this is a prime example of why ATI is very suspect of anything coming from ABX..
We have no quarrel with ABX pilots. Many of us have old friends there and would like to keep it that way. We know there is a great deal of experience and expertise within your group..We just expect all new hires to be treated equally.

 

[nitefr8dog]

When we hire furloughed pilots, they start at the bottom for everything. Bidding seniority,vacation accrual,pay, sick days,etc. This is the point I am trying make..Why would an ABX pilot expect to make twice as much money,keep his vacation,sick days, etc, over a pilot who was hired while on furlough from Continental? Neither one has ever worked for ATI.Or do you think the Continental pilot should keep all his former entilements, too..?
We are always hoping to provide jobs for furloughed pilots and we do feel the pain being furloughed brings with it..We have had our share of furloughs at ATI. We just object to another company telling us how we will pay and determine seniority within our own company. Hiring yes...Special treatment...no...
And as stated earlier,this was not negotiated with ATI..This was a blind side shot that was done by 1224 and Mr Hete...1224 has never negotiated anything with ATI..They do not communicate and this is a prime example of why ATI is very suspect of anything coming from ABX..
We have no quarrel with ABX pilots. Many of us have old friends there and would like to keep it that way. We know there is a great deal of experience and expertise within your group..We just expect all new hires to be treated equally.

The Continental pilot did not come from a company under the ATSG umbrella. This was a SL agreement between ATSG/ABXAIR in the future the deal may look very similar between ATSG/ATI in fact I would bet on it. American had a deal where furloughed pilots on the main line could flow to the Eagle system in a captain position and bump a pilot off the bottom if need be. All this without ever working day one at Eagle. To my knowledge it is still in place. I am sure this was not something the pilots at Eagle were pushing hard for or were happy about but both companies are owned by AMR and the mainline pilots were able to put it in there contract. (just an example not meant to compare please don't wig out)

 

[abxaviator]

I don't understand the heartburn. If it were reversed and it was ATI furloughees coming to ABX, as long as they were junior in SENIORITY and bid as a new hire, I wouldn't give a rip that they were paid based on longevity; that would have ZERO bearing on my ability to bid my seniority and thus would have no affect upon me.

 

[SMOE]

The Continental pilot did not come from a company under the ATSG umbrella. This was a SL agreement between ATSG/ABXAIR in the future the deal may look very similar between ATSG/ATI in fact I would bet on it. American had a deal where furloughed pilots on the main line could flow to the Eagle system in a captain position and bump a pilot off the bottom if need be. All this without ever working day one at Eagle. To my knowledge it is still in place. I am sure this was not something the pilots at Eagle were pushing hard for or were happy about but both companies are owned by AMR and the mainline pilots were able to put it in there contract. (just an example not meant to compare please don't wig out)

Eagle is owned by American, not separate entities like ABX/ATI. The flowback/flowthrough provision is in BOTH labor agreements I'm sure, like it was at CAL/ExpressJet. I'm no labor specialist, but it seems to me, to legitimize this side letter, it would need to be ratified as an LOA in ATI's CBA as well.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Eagle is owned by American, not separate entities like ABX/ATI. The flowback/flowthrough provision is in BOTH labor agreements I'm sure, like it was at CAL/ExpressJet. I'm no labor specialist, but it seems to me, to legitimize this side letter, it would need to be ratified as an LOA in ATI's CBA as well.

Actually Eagle is owned by AMR, as is American Airlines, Executive Airlines, TWA Airlines LLC. ABXAIR, ATI, Capitol and CAM Leasing are all owned by ATSG. Again when the main line contract was scoped the flow back was to provide jobs for mainline not the opposite. I am willing to bet this went over like a turd in the punch bowl!

 

[b707guy]

There are so many shades of gray in this whole thing. The comparison to AA vs. Eagle isn't really applicable here, because AA saw "their" flying displaced to Eagle. I doubt any Eagle crew would argue otherwise. I don't know about Cappy's schedules, but ATI hasn't taken any ABX flying. There has been some cross-substitution among all three companies with the connection between TOL and ILN/CVG, but no one has taken anyone Else's flying. The one run that we've been doing ends today, but it was subcontracted to us since ABX was short aircraft.

Having said that, I really don't care that someone could come to ATI and be paid more and have more vacation than the person one senior. In fact, I think it's a great opportunity. I'm not particularly advocating it, though, because I'm sure there are things that come with such a policy that are beyond my tiny brain to sort out. With that, I'll go whichever way MY OWN EXCO sees fit. And there's the rub - our three respective representative groups were supposed to be talking. As Flyer8 said, Cappy and ATI were blindsided by this. So our guard is up. Can you blame us?

 

[ABXbooger]

Why not merge all three lists into one? If I was a betting man, that would be where I would see this headed anyway. I know it will be ugly, but a stronger group would emerge as a whole. Hete agreed to this for just to see exactly what is going on here on this board. I see him up there going "muwahahaha" (evil laugh).