Abu Graib - Scapegoat 7?

[RVSM]

First lets establish that the photos, etc are horrible. And the soldiers that photographed themselves are full on idiots.

Second that the Media is way overblowing the coverage: Burn., dismember and hang four americans 2 days press time. Embarrass EPW and we are on week 2 of the circus.

After reading the leaked AR15-6 investigation report and listening to the congressional hearing with Rumfeld I think these 6-7 SGTs/SPCs/PFCs are going to get crucified for the greater neocon good while hiding the leadership failures that led up to this.

Lower enlisted soldiers do not run a f'n prison. The Commissioned Officers and Senior Noncoms do. The first two of the soldiers to stand Courts Martial are not even MP qualified. One is a clerk and the other is a wheeled vehicle mechanic. No wonder they did not know they were violating the GC rules on EPWs.

This thing is a massive failure of Leadership at the Company, Battalion and Brigade level and until I see a Commisioned officer standing charges for some of the responsibility then this is a whitewash.

Is it just me or does anybody smell the fishy scent.

 

[Andy Neill]

I did some web searching on the 372nd MP Co to see what was going on besides this story. As you may recall, they were delayed in their return to the US (as was a Utah engineer unit) and, like here, some families were up in arms about the uncertainty of the situation. In a letter to the editor in Cumberland, Md before this story broke, one such wife complained to her congressman about the delay and noted that something was going on because the unit's 1st Sergeant and CO had been assigned to other duties.

Reading between the lines, it looks like the command structure IS being held accountable. I expect this to continue as high up the chain as commanders were aware and did nothing or that commanders directed such activity. I'll wait patiently until then.

 

[jarhead]

RVSM

My view is, that since the photographs DID see the light of day, it will now be impossible to "white wash" this debacle. I agree with you, that there was a complete vacuum of command and leadership. I am confident that the investigations now going on, will lead to many bigger fish being fried in the officer ranks, and also some very large political casualties as well, perhaps even a change in the occupant of the White House. They are really scrambling in D.C. right now, attempting to put their outraged faces on, so as to bely the poor planning for this occupation, the way too small military presence resulting in extended tours past the year promised, and utilizing reservists and untrained civilian 'contractors' to cover the shortfall. You may recall that the departed Army Chief of Staff, General Shinseiki (sp) lost his job when he publically contradicted his bosses, Gen Myers and Sec Rumsfeld, by stating it would take a minimum of 250,000 American troops with feet on the ground, in a post war occupation. The 'leaders' did not want to hear that message, as it would be too expensive, even though Shinseiki was correct.

Once again, arrogance raises its ugly head.

 

[Flightbag]

I think that the poor saps at the bottom of the food chain will take the fall while the higher ups get a pass.

When I say higher ups I mean all the way to the top.

Flightbag

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Is it really Bush's fault for this? Do you think he has time to get status reports on every single unit? Do you think that Rumsfeld has time to go over stuff like this? They don't have the time to monitor every single unit of men and women.

Now, should the lieutenant or captain in charge of these men get charged with something? It's THEIR job to watch what their guys are up to.

If I am screwing off at work, it's my managers job to take care of it, not the CEO of the company.

 

[RVSM]

Like I said until I see a Commissioned officer standing charges, Not slapped on the wrist, I am going to think it is a wash job to make it go away fast.
For this and other past sins against the troops I think rummy's got to go.

 

[RVSM]

I guess its not just me Pt 1

Also I found this on SFTT.org

Abu Ghraib: Bigger than a Mere Scandal

You think those photographs of MPs abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison are bad? They are, but the words are far worse.

The AR 15-6 report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba on the activities of the 800th Military Police (MP) Brigade and a subordinate unit – the 320th Military Police Battalion, whose 372nd MP Company was in charge of Iraqi detainees at the Baghdad prison – is a stern and harsh indictment of practically the entire U.S. Army and Central Command for its handling of Iraqi detainees.

Buried in the 53-page report, and obscured by the news media’s fascination with the gruesome photographs of MPs assaulting and humiliating Iraqi males, are a number of findings that portray the U.S. military in Iraq and Army support commands back in the United States as clearly derelict in their duty to ensure that soldiers abide by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the Geneva Conventions and the Law of Land Warfare. They include:

Ignored warnings of MP failures:

Taguba’s investigation at the request of Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior U.S. military commander in Iraq, began on Jan. 19 as a result of an Army Criminal Investigative Division (CID) probe into allegations of abuse at Abu Ghraib. However, there had been multiple indications over the previous eight months that the 800th MP Brigade was an ill-prepared, poorly trained unit led by incompetent officers.

On June 9, 2003, an 800th MP Brigade guard at another detainment facility known as Camp Cropper sparked a riot that overwhelmed his fellow soldiers and led guards to shoot (none fatally) five prisoners. Taguba revealed:

“Several detainees allegedly rioted after a detainee was subdued by MPs of the 115th MP Battalion after striking a guard in compound B of Camp Cropper. A 15-6 investigation by 1LT Magowan (115th MP Battalion, Platoon Leader) concluded that a detainee had acted up and hit an MP. After being subdued, one of the MPs took off his DCU top and flexed his muscles to the detainees, which further escalated the riot. The MPs were overwhelmed and the guards fired lethal rounds to protect the life of the compound MPs, whereby five detainees were wounded [italics added]. Contributing factors were poor communications, no clear chain of command, facility-obstructed views of posted guards, the QRF did not have non-lethal equipment, and the SOP was inadequate and outdated.”

The on-site AR 15-6 probe into that incident also noted an earlier clash at another detainment facility under the control of the 800th MP Brigade, involving an escape attempt five days earlier where an undisclosed number of Iraqis were shot by MPs. Taguba in his report noted that subsequently “four Soldiers from the 320th MP Battalion had been formally charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) with detainee abuse in May 2003 at the Theater Internment Facility (TIF) at Camp Bucca, Iraq.”

Between June 4, 2003 and Jan. 19, 2004, there were 17 separate riots or inmate escape attempts at facilities under the control of the 800th MP Brigade. In reviewing the incident reports and interviewing MPs involved, Taguba concluded that poor training, breakdowns in guard procedures and inadequate physical security contributed to most of the violence.

If that weren’t enough to set off alarm bells, the U.S. military had conducted two earlier reviews of the operation of detainment facilities months before Taguba was sent in to clean up the stables.

Taguba’s report notes that before launching field interviews his team reviewed the “Assessment of DoD Counter-Terrorism Interrogation and Detention Operations in Iraq” that had been conducted by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, Commander, Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO). This review by experts in “strategic interrogation” spent from Aug. 31 to Sept. 9, 2003 reviewing “current Iraqi Theater ability to rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence.”

In addition, Taguba and his team reviewed a report, “Assessment of Detention and Corrections Operations in Iraq,” that had been delivered by Maj. Gen. Donald J. Ryder, the Army’s Provost Marshal General, on Nov. 6.

Despite those incidents and on-site inspections, Sanchez and the rest of his staff at Combined Joint Task Force Seven (CJTF-7) headquarters remained totally clueless about the 800th MP Brigade’s shoddy performance until a soldier turned over photos of the abuse on Jan. 13. It appears unlikely that even Ryder’s review finally woke up the generals in Baghdad, although Taguba noted, “Unfortunately, many of the systemic problems that surfaced during MG Ryder’s Team’s assessment are the very same issues that are the subject of this investigation. In fact, many of the abuses suffered by detainees occurred during, or near to, the time of that assessment.”

Lack of training: The entire U.S. Army military police branch is implicitly accused of dereliction in Taguba’s assessment of the performance of the 800th MP Brigade. Taguba’s conclusions are extremely blunt:

* “There is abundant evidence in the statements of numerous witnesses that soldiers throughout the 800th MP Brigade were not proficient in their basic MOS skills, particularly regarding internment/resettlement operations. Moreover, there is no evidence that the command, although aware of these deficiencies, attempted to correct them in any systemic manner other than ad hoc training by individuals with civilian corrections experience.”

* “I find that the 800th MP Brigade was not adequately trained for a mission that included operating a prison or penal institution at Abu Ghraib Prison Complex. As the Ryder Assessment found, I also concur that units of the 800th MP Brigade did not receive corrections-specific training during their mobilization period. MP units did not receive pinpoint assignments prior to mobilization and during the post-mobilization training, and thus could not train for specific missions. The training that was accomplished at the mobilization sites were developed and implemented at the company level with little or no direction or supervision at the Battalion and Brigade levels, and consisted primarily of common tasks and law enforcement training. However, I found no evidence that the Command, although aware of this deficiency, ever requested specific corrections training from the Commandant of the Military Police School, the U.S. Army Confinement Facility at Mannheim, Germany, the Provost Marshal General of the Army, or the U.S. Army Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.”

 

[RVSM]

Pt 2

Failed leadership:

Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, commander of the 800th MP Brigade, comes under a harsh spotlight in Taguba’s investigation. Portrayed as a remote and distant commander who rarely visited the prison camps she ran throughout Iraq, Karpinski failed to monitor and supervise her subordinate officers, failed to issue standard operating procedures for MPs, and ignored a growing list of “accountability lapses” in her command.

Taguba is equally harsh on other officers already implicated in the scandal, calling 320th Military Police Battalion Commander Lt. Col. Jerry Phillabaum “an extremely ineffective commander” and describing two of Karpinski’s brigade staff officers as “essentially dysfunctional.”

After a four-hour interview with Karpinski, Taguba wrote, “What I found particularly disturbing in her testimony was her complete unwillingness to either understand or accept that many of the problems inherent in the 800th MP Brigade were caused or exacerbated by poor leadership and the refusal of her command to both establish and enforce basic standards and principles among its soldiers.”

Conflicting Missions:

What directly led to the abuse of Iraqi detainees were two conflicting missions at Abu Ghraib prison, Taguba found. The 320th Military Police Battalion was in charge of guarding the detainees, but the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, under the command of Col. Pappas was in charge of interrogations. The heart of the scandal comes from allegations by soldiers that MI officials persuaded MP guards to “loosen up” Iraqi detainees by physical abuse prior to interrogations.

One MP said in a sworn statement, “In Wing 1A we were told that they had different rules and different SOP for treatment. I never saw a set of rules or SOP for that section, just word of mouth. … Corporal Granier … stated that the Agents and MI soldiers would ask him to do things, but nothing was ever in writing he would complain (sic). Also the wing belongs to MI and it appeared MI personnel approved of the abuse.”

Taguba concluded that “[T]here was clear friction and lack of effective communication between the Commander, 205th MI Brigade, who controlled FOB Abu Ghraib (BCCF) after 19 November 2003, and the Commander, 800th MP Brigade, who controlled detainee operations inside the FOB. There was no clear delineation of responsibility between commands, little coordination at the command level, and no integration of the two functions. Coordination occurred at the lowest possible levels with little oversight by commanders.”

That’s probably how the CIA managed to stash their infamous “ghost detainees” – prisoners whose whereabouts were unlogged and identities cloaked – inside a U.S. Army facility.

None of this happened in a vacuum. Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld visited Abu Ghraib and met Karpinski in a highly-publicized event. There is a clear chain of command linking the lowest-ranking MPs to Lt. Gen. Sanchez and his subordinate generals. CENTCOM commanders in the fall of 2003 were anxious to roll up the former regime leaders still on the lam, including Saddam Hussein, and clearly pressed interrogation experts such as Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller to incorporate stronger techniques to get Iraqi detainees to talk.

A number of officers and senior enlisted men from the 800th MP Brigade have already been relieved of command and received letters of reprimand. Investigators are still looking into the activities of the 205th MI Brigade. Accountability will not stop there, nor should it. There should be courts-martial.

This appalling incident does more than undercut the progress of our mission in Iraq. For years, people familiar with the U.S. military have decried the gap between actual capabilities and the unceasing mission overstretch battering a force slashed by 40 percent after the end of the Cold War. For years, compliant military commanders have covered up the worsening situation with adjectives and adverbs.

What Tagabu’s report shows us in unrelenting candor is that the critics were right: the U.S. military is in danger of coming apart at the seams. A scandal such as Abu Ghraib is merely how it plays out.

 

[chrisdahut24]

Second that the Media is way overblowing the coverage: Burn., dismember and hang four americans 2 days press time. Embarrass EPW and we are on week 2 of the circus.

Am I the only one tired of reading headlines declaring "Arab outrage!" for the humiliation of prisoners. I must admit that I missed the headlines that screamed "Arab Outrage!" at the mutilation of 4 INNOCENT, unarmed CIVILIANS!

 

[jarhead]

chrisdahut24

Perhaps that's because WE are the people who invaded THEIR country. Just a hunch that the Arab press see us for what we are. Invaders of their country. They want us gone, and allowed to run their country in any way they see fit. There has not been democracy there ever, Why would we expect them to start now? You have three factions with the Kurdish, Suni, and Shi'ite populations who all dislike each other. Let them have their own ways to determine what they want for leadership, not some puppet regime for the U.S. to pull strings for the benefit of Haliburton and Amoco. We had our civil war in America without outside intervention. I expect that would be a better solution than our soldiers being killed; let their soldiers and revolutionary forces die for their own causes. We are not wanted in their country by their people. That's the reason such atrocities happen as burning and hanging bodies from bridges. The answer is to pack bags, get on boats, and leave. There are no WMD, theire is no more Saddam and sons, and now our official reason for being there is to give them a democracy they do not want, and we are dying for that misadventure. We will never get what the administration says we must win. As GWB's daddy might have said, "Nuh, ain't gonna happen". Like father like son, GWB is destined to be a "single termer" If not, we are on a long slippery slope to a huge disaster.

 

[Singlecoil]

Re: Re: Abu Graib - Scapegoat 7?

Am I the only one tired of reading headlines declaring "Arab outrage!" for the humiliation of prisoners. I must admit that I missed the headlines that screamed "Arab Outrage!" at the mutilation of 4 INNOCENT, unarmed CIVILIANS!

WTF are you talking about? You mean the four Blackwater security agents who were all former Special Forces or Seals and were armed with rifles? Don't make it sound like they were standing on the corner of 3rd and Vine in downtown Omaha. They were paid up to $1000 a day as mercenaries in a hostile theater. What happened to them is tragic, but don't misrepresent what they were doing there.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

So, where was the outrage when aircraft enforcing the no fly zone were getting shot at by Iraqi units? The outrage against bounties being given for allied pilots? The outrage against Saddam for torturing and killing his own people? I seem to remember Palestians showing their 'outrage' at 9/11 by celebrating and handing out candy.

There is a significant number of them that hate us. Until these people are marginalized, I don't care about their so called 'outrage'.

 

[jarhead]

Jedi_cheese

Give it up. The gun batteries shooting at coalition aircraft were under the command and control of Saddam Hussein. HE IS NO LONGER A FACTOR! In case you have not heard, he is in custody awaiting war crimes trial, and his two wonderful boys are DEAD, as in no longer breathing. There is somehow an assumption being permiated, that because the Saddam regime was an evil regime, that all Iraqi's are quilty of crimes against Americans. How can this be? Is it the mentallity that "If you've seen one Iraqi, you've seen 'em all" How can the Saddam Fedeyeen who brutalized their own people, be equated to being as all Iraqi people are? They were victims more than anyone.

We (America) are now seen as an invading and occpying force on their land.

 

[Big Duke Six]

Thanks Jedi!

I was starting to think I was the only one who could see all this liberal media bullsh1t for what it is. The people who express their "shock" and "outrage" at the events there are only hurting our efforts in Iraq.

Jarhead and Singlecoil, SOME of it may have gone overboard, but largely this is how you get someone to talk. This incredible "outrage" that you and others show at forcing Iraqi men to lie naked together to humiliate them and break their will is sick. WTF do you guys want us to do to them? We're in their country trying to change their political system. If they want to help us change it, then great, get them on board and they'll have one vote, just like everyone else. They don't need to resort to terrorist tactics and kill American civilians do they? Or, I guess that's OK with you right?

 

[Timebuilder]

I am confident that the investigations now going on, will lead to many bigger fish being fried in the officer ranks, and also some very large political casualties as well, perhaps even a change in the occupant of the White House.

I think you have nothing to base that view upon.

We know that there is clearly a lack of correct leadership at the prison, but none of us know why it happened or who failed to prevent it. That's what investigations are for.

Why do I not expect a white wash? Because there is genuine outrage that people would allow something this stupid and repugnent to happen. It's it damaging, no doubt about it. Why them would it make sense to let the offending parties off the hook? That's counter intuitive.

Someone observed the other day that no matter how bad this looks, it will be the manner in which this problem is handled, and how justice is delivered, that will make the greatest positive impression on the world in general, and the Iraqi population in particular.

 

[jarhead]

As I stated in the other thread, the President, the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff, are all on board with me on this. Even John McCain, a brutalized POW pilot in North Vietnam for six years, is outraged more than any of us. I saw his anger expressed in the hearings on Friday.

I guess they are all in error about this too, by your assesment. I am so glad you are not in charge of what treatment be afforded prisoners, who even our intelligence officers say 60% being held have done nothing to us. The International Red Cross says the number of innocent people in Abu Ghriab prison is more like 90% Several hundreds are now being released each week since this poop hit the fan.

Robert Novak, the ultra conservative columnist has today called for Rumsfelds resignation, as these aboninations were on his watch.

 

[Big Duke Six]

And the Red Cross has knowledge as to the guilt/innocence of prisoners of Iraq now? That's funny. You need to listen to yourself talk sometime. And here we could have saved ourselves all this heartache, what with us sending all our Army Men over there like we did, if we had only let the Red Cross pick out which insurgents we need to round up and question. Why didn't we think of that?

 

[Timebuilder]

There is somehow an assumption being permiated, that because the Saddam regime was an evil regime, that all Iraqi's are quilty of crimes against Americans. How can this be? Is it the mentallity that "If you've seen one Iraqi, you've seen 'em all" How can the Saddam Fedeyeen who brutalized their own people, be equated to being as all Iraqi people are? They were victims more than anyone.

I don't advocate that we be as brutal to the Iraqis as they were to us, hanging the bodies of Americans from a bridge, for example.

I don't know anyone who has posited that all Iraqis are evil. Quite the opposite. We must remember, however, that much of the regieme that oppressed the Iraqis is still out there.

Anyone who says that most of the Iraqis in that prison were innocent must be on some sort of opiate.

Some disgusting pictures are not torture. We need to remember that.

 

[jarhead]

Timebuilder

Do some thread searches here. Somewhere today, I was referred to as an "Iraqi lover" or maybe even an "Iraqi" The context implied in the tone was one of biggotry and hate. Much as the term "n*gger lover" would be hurled at someone who defended a black person. If you look, you will find that illogical hatred for the very people America is literally dying for. Our troops must also be "Iraqi lovers" Disgusting.

 

[jarhead]

Timebuilder

Another rebutal.

Your statement that anyone who says that most of the jailed people in Abu Ghraib prison must be on some sort of opiate, rings of a lack of knowledge on your part. Our own government officials and military people have given the figure of 60% in there were just rounded up in "street sweeps" where any male of military age that these platoons doing the "sweeps" just arrested them for being an Iraqi male, on the hope that interogation might bring some valuable information. There was no due process, just arrest, like Hitler did with the Jews.

The opiate smokers you elude to are American officials and American Sergeant Majors who have given this information to the media. I don't know, opium grows in Afghanistan but that's another conflict far from the dessert of Iraq. These are two different wars. The one against Al Queda and the Taliban are justified; the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not.