Abu Graib - Scapegoat 7?

[Big Duke Six]

Mar,

I think you said it more accurately than I. I guess some of what we did in the prison could be considered abuse, but I stand by my previous assertions that the vast majority of what we did there is completely normal from an intelligence standpoint. Prisoners like that (alleged murderers and terrorists) simply do not talk freely. They need to be coerced, which may look ugly to some. And while I have no knowledge of what our rules are regarding what is and what isn't allowed, my military training gave me some idea of what to expect should the worst ever happen to me. I would be really surprised if the Geneva Convention disallows sleep deprivation, nudity or having dogs bark at you. Bodily penetration by foreign objects could be a different matter, I'll give you that. But I'm still skeptical of the claims that we actually beat people to death, sorry.

But the bigger issue here is that I feel the media is directly responsible for this man's death. Yes, read that again if you'd like. This story broke without the pictures months ago, and nobody said anything until the media published the pictures. The American media convinced these killers over there to kidnap Nick and cut his head off. Do you think this is what the media should be doing? Is this their job, to jeopardize the lives of US citizens all over the world? That's what they have done, pure and simple. Their motives to me are clear, and that is to cripple our efforts in ANY conflict, not just in Iraq. What is completely unfathomable is that I woke up this morning to STILL have my computer plastered with more stories about our "abuse" of prisoners, yet the vicious murder of a US civilian, in Iraq to help them rebuild their country, gets relatively no coverage whatsoever. It was a sideline. That's a problem. As was Ted Koppels' stunt a couple weeks ago. Will he do an entire show focusing on how much better off the Iraqi's are now because of us? About the schools, hospitals, roads and power lines we've put up or repaired? The food we've brought? Will he do anything to honor our troops over there now for their bravery and sacrifice and honor they've shown under horrific conditions? No, he'll do none of that. He can't be bothered with it. He certainly WILL be focusing on the heinous crimes we've committed, like the aforementioned forced nudity, homosexual poses, sleep deprivation etc.

Yeah, I guess to the media heads should roll for what we did.


-Edit for typos-

 

[jarhead]

Big Duke Six,

I offer a very different take on the media than from what your tilt towards it seems to be. The Press, “The Fifth Estate”, the “Media”. It is to me probably the most precious of all articles in the Bill of Rights guaranteed in our Constitution. Without it, we would all be totally in the dark about all things. If there were no photos or videos allowed (censorship), and none of us would ever have seen our skyscrapers fall, or the aircraft actually striking them. Photographs generally do not lie. They can be taken out of context, and various people can put “spin” on them, but in the end, they tell the truth. Sometimes the truth is ugly. That’s the way life sometimes is. Sometimes, life can be very good. We all saw the horror of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in photographs. We also saw the compassion of the fire fighter cradling a young girl in his arms who was one of the victims of that horror. Tim McVey, a U.S. soldier, and of Irish heritage American by the sound of his name, was convicted and executed by lethal injection for that horrific act. Yet, no one is on a mission to kill all the Irish over the act of that madman. I see a parallel to the few who cry for the extermination of all Arabs “over there”, as a result of five inhuman criminals who acted with such barbarism in the murder of Mr. Berg.

So often, posters on this board, and others that I come across, attach the label “liberal” in front of the word “media”. I am at a real disconnect with that one. I see folks like Bill O’Reilly, Shawn Hannity, Joe Scarbourough, Dennis Miller, and others; promote the news in a far from unbiased reporting style which is of a very conservative flavor. I see others, such as Dan Rather, Ted Kopple and a few others put their more left leaning “spin” on the news. As an aside on Dan Rather. Are you old enough to remember when Richard Nixon was being taken to task over the Watergate Scandal, and the various press conferences? There was one known as the Saturday Night Massacre, where Nixon fired the special prosecutor looking into the cover-up. It was none other than Dan Rather, who asked the tough questions of Nixon that were not couched with a soft ball presentation. Nixon, shortly after that Saturday Night Massacre, resigned the presidency, rather than face impeachment. It was the media that kept our government honest, not the politicians. Believe it or not, these web boards that you and I exchange ideas on, are also a form of “Media”.

Many conservative posters on these boards decry the outrage given out by the press and by Americans, over the photos of the abuse in the Abu Ghriab prison by some MP’s on duty there. There is a disdain for anyone who thinks this is wrong. Yet, these same detractors say very little, if anything at all, when those from the top of the command down, are also outraged. People and the press are vilified as “weenies” and cowards if they are offended by these photos that the media put out. Yet, President Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, General Myers, John McCain, General Agizib, and many others in the camp that conservatives are very gung-ho to support, are also outraged and say it publicly. Why then, do they not call Bush, Rumsfeld, et al, “weenies” and Cowards”, when they too state their outrage over the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison. Major General Taguba wrote a scathing indictment of the lack of command leadership there that may have led to the abhorrent behavior over there. Is he also a left wing weenie?

You may remain skeptical Big Duke, over the assertion that there were beating deaths that happened in that prison, I am not so skeptical, and neither are a lot of others. We have been shown photos (which you seem to resent exist for the press to print) of a corpse of a detainee who reportedly was beaten to death. Sure, you can claim it’s just some guy’s picture that was beat up by another Iraqi, but the investigations thus far tend to support the allegations outlined in the Taguba report. I feel we all do a disservice to ourselves and others, when we selectively edit out of the news, things that do not fit with our own draft of what we want to be true. The press is the one thing that keeps events from being covered up, and swept under the rug. Without the “media” you would not have known about the beheading of Mr. Berg. That video version of the “news” just so happened to be released to an Arab news station. The Internet truly has become the information highway, and if our own media is censored or filtered, we will only get the slant from organizations in other counties. I don’t know how that would fit your modifying term of “liberal” in front of the word “media”. I want to see the perspectives from the American press as well as the foreign press. I want to see the warts and blemishes. Only then can I make informed decisions of my own, about those people I entrust to run my government. We employ these folks (politicians) and they are accountable to you and me. It is the media that issues the report card on them for you and me to evaluate how we feel they are doing their job. That is what freedom of the press was intended to do, by our founding fathers.

 

[Big Duke Six]

I agree, but there are limits. Should we tell Al-Jazeera which infantry division will be replacing the 101st Airborne? I think you'd agree, NO. I maintain that if there are laws being broken, then show the pictures of those events. I didn't see any laws being broken in any of the prison photos I've seen so far. All those photos did was inflame, once again, the opposition and there is NO justifiable reason to do that. It only serves to cost us lives.

I have no doubt that the release of these photos was politically motivated. Genuine outrage would have come out when the original story broke without the photos.

 

[jarhead]

Duke,

I see your perspective, but I do not share all of it. I can't envison anyone advocating the publication of military secrets, not even the press (of the US) There is a need for secrets, but I don't know if that can be equated to the cover up of criminal activity.

I also have a different perspective than you have with respect to photographs. They convey far more than the written word, and convey it around the world to folks who cannot read English, and also to folks here and abroad who are illiterate, and can't read at all.

News photos have shaped views around the world, all through the 20th century, and even more so in the 21st century. As Rumsfeld said, we now live in a digital age, and we must adapt. I watched the Deputy Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marine General Peter Pace comment yesterday to a Cadet at the Academy. He echoed much of what Rumsfeld had said about living in a digital age. But he added a wonderful caveat to his remarks at the end to a questioning female cadet. Peter Pace said, "If you're afraid of being photographed doing dumb and stupid things, then DON'T do dumb and stupid things". He got a standing ovation from the audience. Then Rumsfeld stepped back up to the podium and stated while pointing at General Pace, and smiling said, "That's why he's wearing 4 stars."

 

[Mr. Cole]

I can say that the civility being shown here is refreshing. Thanks guys.

Dave