Abu Graib - Scapegoat 7?

[RVSM]

Ok well the original thread, "Do you think anyone other than enlisted soldiers will stand trial?" has since been hijacked.

Thanks Jarhead. Now how about flying my thread into a building.

 

[jarhead]

No, Mr. big duke six, the International Red Cross does not have information as to the guilt or innocence of prisoners in Iraq. That is just the point, nobody does. These people were randomly picked up in street sweeps by our soldiers, and hauled off to the hoose gow, with no due process, no bail, no writ of habeas corpus, and charged with no crimes at all. That is not a way to instill the values of democracy in the Iraqi people. I do “listen to myself talk; I wish you would also.

However, I do agree with your assessment that we could have saved ourselves all this heartache and not send all our soldiers over there. You seem to advocate the value of democracy, by denying those very things to the people you want us to liberate. It reminds me a little of the atrocity known as the Mel lei massacre in Vietnam. We saved the villagers from the perils of communism, by machine gunning 135 women and children to death in a ditch. It’s an extreme metaphor, but accurate to a degree. We sell democracy by denying it to those we want to have it?

 

[Timebuilder]

Your statement that anyone who says that most of the jailed people in Abu Ghraib prison must be on some sort of opiate, rings of a lack of knowledge on your part.

Specifically, I said that those who think that most of the Iraqis in that prison are innocent are on some sort of opiate.

A street sweep, as I understand it, is based on the attitude displayed by the individuals. Remember, this is a war, not the usual police work. It is justifiable under the rules of engagement. To be honest, we don't have enough prison space there to detain everyone we should.

You see, Sadaam didn't need a large prison. His prisoners were rarely alive long enough to present a space problem.

I can't image when or how good old fashioned common sense never took over in regard to the handling of these prisoners. Are we raising young people incapable of knowing right from wrong?

 

[Big Duke Six]

Jarhead,

Me lai? That's a little off man. You can't even loosely equate machine gunning people with a little sexual humiliation. We need to allow democracy to get a foothold in Iraq before we can use it's system of justice. We are still cleaning the place up. Although it would be nice, it is completely unrealistic to think that we could allow these insurgent terrorist groups to co-exist with a fledgling democracy over there. At least in the beginning, it's going to take some brute force. We can't win if we're bogging ourselves down continuously making sure that we're the only side playing by the rules. You know d@mn sure they aren't. This is a war, and rules get bent, within reason. Poison gas? No. Expanding bullets? No. Stripping prisoners and laying them on top of each other? Yes, I'll accept it if it helps. You really want to tie the hands of our military like that, because you're afraid to offend some prisoners? I know you do, because you don't want us there in the first place. But I want us to win, and believe if we're successful the Iraqi's and the world will be better off. Try to see it.

There may be some evidence of genuine abuse coming, but right now all we have is evidence that we made them disrobe and in a few cases, perform some simulated or actual sex acts or other things. I'm not proud of it necessarily, but I am smart enough to know we don't have even a smidgeon of the real story. The true story will never be fully told because it involves classified information. As for your assertions that they are innocent, I don't know how we picked up those particular men, but I am confident enough in the brains of our soldiers over there to not believe they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time as you do. You, having been there, should know better.

 

[C601]

" Stripping prisoners and laying them on top of each other? Yes, I'll accept it if it helps"

How does laying naked prisoners on top of one another help the bigger picture... more like a sex freak show

'Since June 2003 over a hundred 'high value detainees' have been held for nearly 23 hours a day in strict solitary confinement in small concrete cells devoid of daylight,'' says the report. ''Their continued internment several months after their arrest in strict solitary confinement constituted a serious violation of the third and fourth Geneva Conventions

"This is a war, and rules get bent, within reason"

Rules get bent you say, how far you want to bend them ?

The report says some coalition military intelligence officers estimated ''between 70 percent and 90 percent'' of the detainees in Iraq ''had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.


The whole thing stinks if you ask me....

A CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll released on Monday showed that Bush's approval rating had slumped to a new low of 46 percent. In Britain, a new poll showed support for Blair's Labour Party had fallen to its lowest level for 17 years

 

[bart]

The issue is very simple, punish the guilty.

The Democrats have an election to win and their water carriers (jarhead, the media and others) want to make this a political issue. Fine, let them. They got the crap beat out of them in 2000, they politicized the War on Terror and had their hats handed to them in 2002, and they are well on their way to a landslide defeat in 2004.

It is wishful thinking that Bush will be defeated. He has been effective. He has pursued and carried out the policies he said he would, and they are succeeding, despite the Democrats best efforts to see them fail.

Hell, if we were all on a boat and elected a Republican to Captain the ship, the Democrats would blow a hole below the waterline to show the failure of Republican leadership.

At the end of the day, the Democrats are a bunch of whiny little girls that had their chance in the 90s to solve the problems Bush is facing and they found it much more urgent to get haircuts and blowjobs.

Oh well, now you get to live with it.

 

[jarhead]

Bart,
You really are becoming such a tool. No, it’s not simple. It goes well beyond punishment of the guilty. Measures must be taken to prevent this type of abuse again. Even your own President, Cabinet members, Senators from both parties have demanded that full accountability be determined. Do you believe your President and other Republican Party members are “just saying this because the have to”? If that is your view, you are suggesting that your elected leadership is lying for the sake of political expediency. Now there’s something to instill the confidence of the electorate.
Secondly, your definition of the Democrats getting the “crap beat out of them” in 2000 is laughable. Surly you remember that it took the Supreme Court, on a split decision, to render a winner of the 2000 election. Bush did win, but by a whisker. You also know that GWB did not win a majority of the popular vote. I am really curious as to how you equate that to “getting the crap beat out of them”. Incidentally, I did vote for Mr. Bush in 2000, not because I thought he was a great and articulate leader, but because Mr. Gore was part of another failed administration from a moral stature. Also, I didn’t want Gore for President, because he invented the Internet and didn’t do a good enough job at it, and the fact that the Movie “Love Story” was an account of his and Tipper Gore’s lives.
Third, your assertion that GWB being defeated as being “wishful thinking” is wishful thinking on your part. GWB now has a 46% approval rating, his lowest ever and still falling. A Gallop poll released yesterday showed that if the Election were held today, Bush would lose. How do you square that as wishful thinking?

Then you resort to pure hyperbole about the Democrats drilling a hole in the boat bottom as the Republican Captain tries to save them all. Get a grip man: you're losing it, and I envision you frothing at the mouth writing such nonsense.
This still is a free country, and the majority of the vote at the ballot box will determine the outcome. I accept that; I think you should also.

 

[jarhead]

Since you provided one, I have a different nautical metaphor for you to consider, Bart. The captain up on the bridge of the Titanic is a Republican. He is warned by members of his own crew, who are of all political stripes, that they are in fog shrouded conditions in the dark of night, they are in a known iceberg field, and there are less than half the number of lifeboats needed for all souls on board. These people warning the captain are engineers on the ship, as well as common seamen.

The captain’s response to these warnings is to ignore them. He says continue the course, and we will not alter the speed. He says, “This ship is unsinkable, we will stay the course”.

I like my nautical metaphor better than yours.

 

[Mr. Cole]

Duke,

Maybe that's the problem. We're in their country trying to change their system. I don't like the thought of our soldiers dying either, particularly since I had a cousin there until recently. But if all is fair in war and we can break some rules here and there, then we can't be outraged when they do the same, by that logic. We can't say they went too far when they do something we find deplorable, but we went just far enough in our actions. It's all relative.

Dave

Thanks Jedi!

WTF do you guys want us to do to them? We're in their country trying to change their political system. If they want to help us change it, then great, get them on board and they'll have one vote, just like everyone else. They don't need to resort to terrorist tactics and kill American civilians do they? Or, I guess that's OK with you right?

 

[mar]

The Titanic vs. the Exxon Valdez

Jarhead--Sir, though I appreciate your contribution to this thread I think I have a better nautical comparison: The Exxon Valdez.

Whereas the Titanic is a good example of arrogant leadership I think the Exxon Valdez is a good example of careless leadership.

I picture the Capt on the bridge rubbing his eyes and saying, "You guys got it? I'm gonna sack out. Call me if you need anything."

And the helm is left to those the company never intended to charge with guiding the big boat into dire straights.

It's really a CRM topic and the illustrious crew of our big boat resembles officers counting out portions of strawberries while she's listing in pitchy seas.

I bet Typhoon 1244 gets the reference.

 

[mar]

Bueller? Anyone?

Anyone else notice the Bush apologists mitigate prisoner abuse with the convenient, "Well this is *war*, you know?"

I think that's really funny, 'cause, you know, war was never declared and I think it was about a year ago that the administration *declared* an end to "major combat."

They said, effectively, we're in control of Iraq.

But now it's war again and things are starting to unravel.

Our "control" is tenuous.

Our leadership is out of the communication loop.

Anti-American sentiment and pro-Arab sympathizers are inflamed more than ever.

So, is anyone besides me tired of the double-speak?

The war is over.
This is war.

So what is it?
Where are we on the checklist?
Does anyone have a plan?
Who's in charge here?
I want a new Captain.

 

[AxisVDP]

They always pull scapegoats like this. Case and point: The friendly fire incident involving the two (?) pilot who bombing some guys doing live fire training exercises in Iraq. When I'm in the military you can be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure I'll take the heat before my guys do.

 

[A Squared]

Re: The Titanic vs. the Exxon Valdez

It's really a CRM topic and the illustrious crew of our big boat resembles officers counting out portions of strawberries while she's listing in pitchy seas.

......but there was a duplicate key to the icebox.....


And to mar goes the silver blender award for rising above and beyond the call in mixing metaphors

 

[Denizen]

Mr. Maryk, you may tell the crew for me that there are four ways of doing things aboard my ship: The right way, the wrong way, the Navy way, and my way. They do things my way, and we'll get along. -Lt. Cmdr PFQ

 

[OUjetdrvr]

I seem to recall a side note in this big mess of a story that a good majority of the pictures involved sex acts amongst the guards themselves. Which leads me to believe we' ve got some under- sexed mixings of troops over there. No doubt somewhat a given on long deployments. Which further leads me to believe the root to be isolated relatively low in the CoC. Unless there are higher ranking under-sexed people over there. These acts however do our cause absolutely no good and in my opinion the guilty should pay heavily for setting back our good intentions and worse our image as evil Americans which will only breed more hatred and terror attacks in the future.
People, stop buying into the liberal media viewpoints and believing we are big bad tyrants and start feeling guilty about being over there...and to turn tail and run now would only dishonor those 700 lives who left and did not come back.
Regardless of the status and training/defense of those mutilated guards the fact remains that they were mutilated which in many cultures is ultimate disrespect. In my opinion both events are tit for tat...but fortuneatly for those inmates they got to keep their lifes.
And our little terrorist friends respond by brutally beheading an innocent man....after they cry fowl that the poor inmates dignity was forever ruined. A lot of this stuff reminds me of the irrational behavior of children.
The sooner the Arab people in the entire region learn to stand up and fight their own problems and social parasites(terrorists) and stop hating and fighting us, the less damage and pain will they have to endure. Why cant they just straighten up and get their S%!t together...just my 43 cents.

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Besides after either the oil runs out or we finally decide to move to better things, they will all be left building sand castles again and left behind by the world AGAIN with their prescious ancient customs and society! By the way before you atttack me on anything I am republican but dont buy into all the bs and or Bush but then again Kerry isnt the greatest choice either....are there any good leaders left?

 

[Big Duke Six]

Ok,

After watching the Nick Berg video, who still thinks the US engaged in prisoner abuse?

Anyone?

 

[mar]

Let's keep it in perspective

Abuse? Yes.

Torture? No.

I think we're losing our perspective. Things are gettin' crazy.

Posing naked with panties while chained to a bed frame is abusive but it ain't torture.

That doesn't mean prisoners weren't beaten to death--THEY WERE!

And I wouldn't call that torture either, but it's a higher degree of abuse.

Bottom line: there can be no high road in this conflict. Moral equivocation will only result in more victimization.

Is there a solution? My opinion: We're past the point of no return. Our leadership will *never* cut their losses and let Iraq transform itself into whatever mess it would surely become.

Conversely, democracy in Iraq is a fool's game.

Sure they may get a constitution but between the Shias, Sunnis and Kurds there will never be the necessary unity.

E pluribus unum is not a concept they will ever embrace.

 

[A Squared]

Which leads me to believe we' ve got some under- sexed mixings of troops over there. No doubt somewhat a given on long deployments.

On a related note, I read the other day that Lynndie England, the girl with the cigarette in the photos is pregnant by none other than one of the other guys in the photos. I'm not sure what if anything this proves..........

 

[Singlecoil]

Ok,

After watching the Nick Berg video, who still thinks the US engaged in prisoner abuse?

Anyone?

I do, along with the Secretary of Defense and the President of the United States.