AAA-West En-Banc appeal

[johnnyb]

For the record I don't know because they don't tell us.

If I were you, THAT would concern me greatly.

 

[TWA Dude]

Once again, the lawyers are still on the job. Since they didn't take the case pro bono I'm confident the bills are being paid to their satisfaction.

 

[Taco Rocket]

Your concern further leads me to believe that you and others may wish to contribute to our cause.

What exactly is your cause at this point? Won't you now have to wait for a new contract to be negotiated, ratified, and implemented BEFORE you can sue again? Wouldn't it stand to reason it would take a minimum of 2-3 years just to get to the point of another federal lawsuit? And then the appeals.

So are you seeking donations to pay for past or future litigation attempts?
Are you incorporated as an LLC in an attempt to avoid personal liability for legal bills?

I am simply asking honest questions, not making the typical FlightInfo personal attack. Obviously this is an emotional issue, as this topic resurfaces every month. And why am I interested? This situation will impact every future industry merger.

 

[TWA Dude]

What exactly is your cause at this point?

Making sure the East knows what's ahead if they keep trying to cram down their list on us.

Won't you now have to wait for a new contract to be negotiated, ratified, and implemented BEFORE you can sue again?

Not implemented, just ratified.

Wouldn't it stand to reason it would take a minimum of 2-3 years just to get to the point of another federal lawsuit?

Don't know. Whatever it takes.

So are you seeking donations to pay for past or future litigation attempts?

All the above.

Are you incorporated as an LLC in an attempt to avoid personal liability for legal bills?

Yes.

And why am I interested? This situation will impact every future industry merger.

The NW and DAL guys already showed they learned the lesson. Get a contract first and then make the arbitrated list effective immediately. Simple, elegant, and it prevents another pilot group from behaving like the Easties.

 

[doh]

My question still hasn't been answered. The two groups agreed to binding arbitration. How does a simple name change allow one party to nullify the binding arbitration? They are as free as ALPA to abandon binding arbitration, but ALPA wasn't free to abandon it after both parties agreed to stand the arbitrator issued his ruling. The two parties are made up of the same people. How does the ruling not stand? Someone from the East please explain this to me.

 

[BeCareful!]

My question still hasn't been answered. The two groups agreed to binding arbitration. How does a simple name change allow one party to nullify the binding arbitration? They are as free as ALPA to abandon binding arbitration, but ALPA wasn't free to abandon it after both parties agreed to stand the arbitrator issued his ruling. The two parties are made up of the same people. How does the ruling not stand? Someone from the East please explain this to me.

Perhaps your question hasn't been answered because it contains spin, whether intentional or not. USAPA is vastly different than a "simple name change." That's a cute but disingenuous over simplification. It's also a popular sentiment of West pilots who are trying very hard not to understand what has occurred, the actual history of it, so they can wallow in their victim roles and cry that the big bad unscrupulous USAir pilots are stealing their A330 Trans Atlantic flying (such a big part of what they expected when they signed on at America West.)

USAPA is a vastly different organization from ALPA, one which is designed to protect everyone on the list. In terms of democratic process, it's a quantum leap from the ALPA days of "no need to vote, we know what's best." Look at our working agreement right now to see how well ALPA did with that.

You said the two parties are made up of the same people? Really? You'll have to explain that one. USAPA recruited former ALPA people when that made sense, but few of the former ALPA screw-ups are in any position of power right now, and the ones who are are being watched like hawks.

So, finally you ask how does the ruling not stand. Gee, don't know what to tell ya. Why don't you watch it go down like the rest of us and learn for yourself? Maybe we are about to learn that you can screw some of the people some of the time, you can screw a lot of people a lot of the time, but not even MLB-banned George Nicolau can screw most of the people for the rest of their working lives.

 

[BeCareful!]

Please don't insult everybody's intelligence. Must I replay the sequence of events? The War Against the West began when the AAA petulantly withdrew from joint contract negotiations during the summer of 2007.

Sure, Twadude, go ahead and replay. I'm sure you'll omit several key points where your side blew it. We gave you profit sharing (even though your side isn't profitable) and you fought us on parity. Yeah, you guys have been real gems, super pros from the get go. You guys seem to have more of your lives you like to spend ranting on the Internet, so the cyber impression is different, but your old ALPA A$$ holes started the war. Then, you formed an actual army to fight and sue.

Who cares about Nicolau. We're talking about USAPA's Duty to Fairly Represent. I'm sure you noticed that but for the ripeness issue the case was open-and-shut.

Awe, that's darling. Who cares about Nic? YOU DO, as it would turbo your career beyond anything you'd ever been able to imagine upon accepting employment at AWA. I hear your boys try to tell Parker that Addington had nothing to do with Nic. He shot that lame spin attempt down pretty quick, didn't he?

President Ahmadinejad, is that you? Your revisionist view of history will not stand. Remember how the AAA MEC sued the AWA MEC? Care to withdraw your statement?

Nope. What's the status of that lawsuit? Who was the plaintiff??? ALPA?!?
EFF ALPA, and EFF all their lame efforts, suits, and ad hoc committees. You like the past, don't ya? Like your AmWest FO status. The here and now is waiting for you to join in.

The appellate court told you when you ratify a TA with your DOH (cramdown) list it will be "unquestionably ripe". That's all that matters at this point.

Right. And for you to sleep soundly and keep having good dreams of A330 school, that's all you want to know (or admit you know) about the ramifications of losing the appeal. Sleep well.

DOH cramdown?!? God help us all! What the h#ll did you expect when you interviewed at America West Airlines? Your DOH was all you ever had, and now you want someone elses DOH?!? Jesus! You've got roughly 23% of our flying and you've closed an entire base...but you want more?

Anyway, I'm headed out to live life. Enjoy the Internet. Remember: spin and selective memory will make you feel better about everything.

 

[Ocity]

Ya, the AOL crowd has made this merger a living hell. They can't figure out DOH is the gold standard and are screwing the rest of us with their terrorist antics. AOL is holding this pilot group hostage!

The "AOL" Crowd comprises 40% of your combined pilot list. You guys may have been able to screw over 5-10% but 40% ain't gonna fly. I have to laugh at your Captains making less money than many co-pilots at ALPA/SWAPA carriers...even $75dollars/hr less that little ole' Spirit.

Some "Legacy". You will either be without a contract for years...or be back in court soon staring down the re-issue of a permanent injunction. The difference this time is you'll have voted in a Joint Contract.

Game Over. Somebody should explain reality to the CLT reps. They apparently live in a vacuum where reading comprehension isn't necessary.

 

[St. Nic]

Once AOL runs out of money this whole pilot group needs to get together and move forward. With DOH protections there is no need to worry. You have what you have

 

[Ocity]

Once AOL runs out of money this whole pilot group needs to get together and move forward. With DOH protections there is no need to worry. You have what you have

I assure you. That will never, NEVER happen. AOL doesn't have the slightest cashflow problem. Also, I love the "you have what you have" comment.

The reality is "East pilots have what West pilots HAD". You had 1879 furloughees, two decades of F.O. Reserve, and hundreds of jets parked in the desert...that's what YOU had. As for "conditions and Restrictions the PHX reps are 1. the principle member and founder of AOL and Catus 18 defendant and the other is Cactus 18 as well. How much participation do you think the BPR will get in negotiating Conditions and Restrictions from the West reps? Once again, in court, it will come out that the C&R were drafted soley by East Pilots...telling the West pilots what's fair.

Won't fly. Arbitrators determine fairness...not the majority who stands to gain an immense windfall...I can't believe how many of you guys believe this lie.

Also, doesn't it kind of display a bit of a character flaw when one so publicly announces the hope that the victims run out of money and then become unable to defend themselves against an angry mob?

The sentiment you're proclaiming is the singular strategy remaining to Seham. It speaks volumes as to the character of the USAPA supporters. Not new information however.

Integrity Matters. Your Parents were supposed to teach you that.

 

[TWA Dude]

... but your old ALPA A$$ holes started the war. Then, you formed an actual army to fight and sue.

What are you talking about?

I hear your boys try to tell Parker that Addington had nothing to do with Nic.

It doesn't. It's about USAPA's DFR.

He shot that lame spin attempt down pretty quick, didn't he?

I guess that makes Parker your hero. In the beginning we had some quaint notions that maybe Parker would look out for his own in the merger but that's obviously not been the case. Congratulations.

DOH cramdown?!?

The bottom East FO at the time of the merger was a 1989 hire. That means a DOH integration puts the bottom East FO senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. That's a cramdown.

Your DOH was all you ever had, and now you want someone elses DOH?!?

Nope, all I want is what was agreed to.

Jesus! You've got roughly 23% of our flying and you've closed an entire base...but you want more?

Actually, we don't have 23% of your flying. The Transition Agreement specifies exactly how the division of flying is to be handled. We're allowed to fly round trips from your hubs just as you're allowed to fly from ours. I've no doubt if the company is violating the TA USAPA would be all over it. If you've discovered a violation please make Dear Leader Cleary aware of it.

Anyway, I'm headed out to live life. Enjoy the Internet. Remember: spin and selective memory will make you feel better about everything.

Okay, bye.

 

[TWA Dude]

Once AOL runs out of money this whole pilot group needs to get together and move forward.

Okay. We'll be sure to let you know as soon as we've run out. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

 

[Lear70]

If you guys don't knock it off with people's initials and/or the profanity, I'm gonna start sending ALL of you to the penalty box for a few days.

I know it's very personal to all of you, but you HAVE to follow the rules...

/mod

 

[get2flyin]

If you guys don't knock it off with people's initials and/or the profanity, I'm gonna start sending ALL of you to the penalty box for a few days.

I know it's very personal to all of you, but you HAVE to follow the rules...

/mod

If you sanction a pilot and then they change their login ID, does the sanction still apply? Just askin'.....

 

[Lear70]

They can't change their login I.D. without completely opening a new account.

Unless they're just obviously the same person by going right back into the same threads, write the same way, make the same ToS violations, and we get suspicious and start tracing IP addresses and can use that to determine that it's the same person, it's otherwise hard to tell when someone does that.

A lot of irritation to go through for simply failing to follow the rules, especially when repeated offenses with a different screen name will simply get that one banned, too. Waste of $10 bucks when we'll just delete the offending post and sanction the new person violating the ToS.

 

[C Festerpuss]

I dunno bout much, but that seems to bout sum it up.

 

[rumrunner300]

Jesus, what is this.. a game of cricket?

This is perhaps the most intriquing question on this entire thread. Does anyone really know the rules of cricket and whether the game actually ends or a team simply says "F!#$ it, we're going home?"

Hmmmm

rr

 

[cactusboy53]

Ya, the AOL crowd has made this merger a living hell. They can't figure out DOH is the gold standard and are screwing the rest of us with their terrorist antics. AOL is holding this pilot group hostage!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

You have got to be kidding me. Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, meet pot.

 

[cactusboy53]

What exactly is your cause at this point? Won't you now have to wait for a new contract to be negotiated, ratified, and implemented BEFORE you can sue again? Wouldn't it stand to reason it would take a minimum of 2-3 years just to get to the point of another federal lawsuit? And then the appeals.

So are you seeking donations to pay for past or future litigation attempts?
Are you incorporated as an LLC in an attempt to avoid personal liability for legal bills?

I am simply asking honest questions, not making the typical FlightInfo personal attack. Obviously this is an emotional issue, as this topic resurfaces every month. And why am I interested? This situation will impact every future industry merger.

I'm just trying to help disseminate information regarding our legal battle to those parties that are interested. The Ninth has ruled ONLY that the case is not ripe. As such the West pilots are forced to see what USAPA offers in a contract. We also must wait and see exactly what the company will counter-offer. I think LCC management was waiting for the courts to tell them how to handle the seniority. Now LCC has to make a decision.

It is no secret that our legal bills are in the red. Each of us send in what we can, and as I mentioned previously....pilots from other airlines also send in contributions. This (unfortunately) will be a long and drawn out battle between the east pilots that feel they can renege on a process by simply switching collective bargaining units, and the west pilots that went into the process with the thought that all parties were could be trusted to go along with the dictated merger policy.

It's all about what you said you would do. No about what is fair or not fair. If we go by that measurement, then I think the number one pilot should have been an America West pilot.....but we agreed upon a process.

I guess the thing that is truly uncool (IMHO) is:
1. All AWA pilots must pay USAPA union dues in order to keep our jobs (by contractual obligation). No pay, no job.
2. USAPA freely spends "our" union dues in litigation against our pilots (on two fronts: The RICO lawsuit against a couple dozen AWA pilots, and in defense of the DFR lawsuit...now simply deemed "not ripe").
3. ALL litigation in defense of seniority and persecutory RICO is being footed by the AWA pilot group alone.

USAPA and the company are in mediated contract talks presently. We could see a contract offer to vote on (including the mystery seniority list) within the year.

A real monkey wrench is the snap-back. If a arbitrator sees USAPA's point of view, and awards snap-back wages for the east......that will change the dynamic even further.

It's going to be an interesting year.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The arbitrator in that case wasn't even willing to come in from home to hear the case. I think we can get a pretty good idea of what he'll decide.

But binding arbitration doesn't really mean anything, so even if the arbitrator awards something, why should US pay?