AAA-West En-Banc appeal

[SOVT]

Rumor out there that the appeal was denied. Any credible info out there?

 

[Metrojet]

Rumor out there that the appeal was denied. Any credible info out there?

rumor - correct

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Correct. Issue not ripe in the justices' eyes.

 

[General Lee]

Correct. Issue not ripe in the justices' eyes.

All that means is that the West hasn't been affected YET. The company would be crazy to deal with the East and do it their way, because as soon as they do that, the West will cry "ripe" and they will THEN WIN. Can you explain how this was a WIN for the East? Maybe a Delay, but not a win. As soon as something AFFECTS the West, they will sue and win. And, the West guys still make more money than the East guys per hour on the 757s and smaller busses.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[mesaserf]

Jesus, what is this.. a game of cricket?

When will this crap end?

 

[TWA Dude]

When will this crap end?

As soon as the Easties want it to. They started the war and the West is only defending itself.

Binding arbitration is supposed to be binding even when the result is disliked.

 

[captfred]

As soon as the Easties want it to. They started the war and the West is only defending itself.

Binding arbitration is supposed to be binding even when the result is disliked.

Amen brother.

 

[johnnyb]

Binding arbitration is supposed to be binding even when the result is disliked.

And membership ratification is too, even when you're out voted 2-1.

 

[BeCareful!]

As soon as the Easties want it to. They started the war and the West is only defending itself.

Binding arbitration is supposed to be binding even when the result is disliked.

We started a war? Weren't you guys the plaintiffs? This is over now unless you guys decide to waste everyone's time with another lawsuit.

Nicolau arbitrated a dispute between two ALPA's. That's history. We have a new union because the vast majority wanted one. ALPA sucks, and it has for many years. Many of your pilots know this at their core, which is why they tried to get rid of ALPA too, before the St. Nic landed in your laps and all of a sudden ALPA looked real good, if only as a means of keeping the windfall that put you on top of a seniority list with massive retirements and wide body flying and opportunities that would have never, never ever, existed for you out of LAS or PHX.

We didn't sue you. You started the legal battle, which I have to say is an improvement over the period of time you guys were mailing feces to the union. You are to be commended for elevating yourselves to at least legitimate actions pursued in court. Commendations aside, though, it doesn't change the fact that the West is in charge of letting this fight die, not the East. The courts have opined that a contract with the Nic windfall in it is not going to be ratified. Attempting to ratify a contract with the Nic in it would be a waste of time for USAPA. So, what exactly do you suggest they do?

Mediated negotiations are under way. You'd be best served to get a grip on what's really going on, not just what your team posts on the Internet. Your Date of Hire, combined with generous one-way protections designed to bolster your lot in light of the fact that you're at the younger airline, is not exactly a poke in the eye. It only looks that way if you imagine that the Nic is in place. The 9th circuit let go of that fantasy, not even considering it plausible; perhaps it's time for you to do so, as well.

 

[jtf]

It won't end until all the pre merger East pilots are retired, the company is sold off in parts, or liquidates. And even then there may be some more lawsuits. What a marriage made in Hell. I honestly feel for both sides.

 

[Whine Lover]

hayseuss frickin' christo...here we go AGAIN.

 

[Milmil]

And, the West guys still make more money than the East guys per hour on the 757s and smaller busses.

Bye Bye--General Lee

That is not quite accurate; If you would have said the 737s and smaller buses you would have been correct.

 

[TWA Dude]

We started a war? Weren't you guys the plaintiffs?

Please don't insult everybody's intelligence. Must I replay the sequence of events? The War Against the West began when the AAA petulantly withdrew from joint contract negotiations during the summer of 2007.

-----This is over now unless you guys decide to waste everyone's time with another lawsuit.

We wouldn't dream of losing your respect by giving up so easily. If you try to shove your list down our gullets it'll be unquestionable ripe and we'll file for an injunction. You fire at us and we return fire.

-----Nicolau ... blah blah blah.

Who cares about Nicolau. We're talking about USAPA's Duty to Fairly Represent. I'm sure you noticed that but for the ripeness issue the case was open-and-shut.

-----We didn't sue you.

President Ahmadinejad, is that you? Your revisionist view of history will not stand. Remember how the AAA MEC sued the AWA MEC? Care to withdraw your statement?

-----You started the legal battle,...

Aside from you being wrong about that it's a specious argument to accuse the aggrieved of starting the battle by filing a lawsuit. The Addington suit was a defensive move.

-----...which I have to say is an improvement over the period of time you guys were mailing feces to the union.

Did that actually happen? If so, prove it! Oh yeah, you can't. If it did happen criminal charges would've been filed (and rightly so). Did the DA even investigate?

-----Commendations aside, though, it doesn't change the fact that the West is in charge of letting this fight die, not the East.

That statement is correct in the same sense that a rape victim is free to stop resisting at any time and just enjoy the sex. (Credit to Bobby Knight for originating that gem.)

-----The courts have opined that a contract with the Nic windfall in it is not going to be ratified.

Opinions are like anuses. Theirs is non-binding and irrelevant to the case.

-----Attempting to ratify a contract with the Nic in it would be a waste of time for USAPA.

I don't believe you. You'll have to prove it.

-----So, what exactly do you suggest they do?

Thanks for asking. a) drop the RICO suit appeal and compensate the defendants for their legal fees. b) Merge with ALPA and we'll take it from there.

-----Your Date of Hire, combined with generous one-way protections designed to bolster your lot in light of the fact that you're at the younger airline, is not exactly a poke in the eye. It only looks that way if you imagine that the Nic is in place.

Seriously, do you really expect us to believe that? There's a reason our seniority integration ended up in arbitration: because we were unable to reach consensual agreement.

I don't give a poop how "generous" you feel your c&r's are. We don't agree to them and your attempt to shove them down our gullet proves how egregious your failure to represent us is.

-----The 9th circuit let go of that fantasy, not even considering it plausible; perhaps it's time for you to do so, as well.

The appellate court told you when you ratify a TA with your DOH (cramdown) list it will be "unquestionably ripe". That's all that matters at this point.

 

[Taco Rocket]

I have a serious question, if I may:

How will the West continue to pay for these lawsuits? I wonder how much it owes its attorneys already. Must be millions. How is this financed? Does the West have an indefinite open credit line from their law firm? At what point do they expect to be paid? Who fronted the money for the current cases?

I assume the other side is dues financed with solid cash flow. And I read that the appeal's denial will not allow the West to collect any cash at this time. Without going in to the merits of any case (more than beating a dead horse on these forums), can anyone intelligently speak to any of these questions?

 

[TWA Dude]

How will the West continue to pay for these lawsuits?

Same way we've funded it thus far: voluntary contributions.

I wonder how much it owes its attorneys already.

Why in the world would you care? For the record I don't know because they don't tell us. From that I'm guessing whatever it is it's manageable. Don't you worry about our legal bills. You can run along now.

 

[Taco Rocket]

Same way we've funded it thus far: voluntary contributions.Why in the world would you care? For the record I don't know because they don't tell us. From that I'm guessing whatever it is it's manageable. Don't you worry about our legal bills. You can run along now.

Self funded, and you don't know how much you owe? (And you don't ask?)

 

[TWA Dude]

The lawyers are still working. That tells me they're being paid enough.

 

[cactusboy53]

Self funded, and you don't know how much you owe? (And you don't ask?)

Taco;
Thanks for the concern. As TWA said it is self funded. As things progress, the former AWA pilot group are sending in contributions. One thing that you may not know is that there are pilots from OTHER AIRLINES that are sending in contributions as well!! Isn't that AWESOME?!?!

Your concern further leads me to believe that you and others may wish to contribute to our cause. If that is the case:

LEONIDAS LLC
PO BOX 3362
TEMPE, AZ 85282​

Thanks again for voicing your concern. It is greatly appreciated!!​

 

[Crzipilot]

Hmmm...I wonder if you might do better with contributions, sitting on a corner with a cardboard sign. I'm sure we could come up with some snappy slogans for ya....

 

[St. Nic]

Ya, the AOL crowd has made this merger a living hell. They can't figure out DOH is the gold standard and are screwing the rest of us with their terrorist antics. AOL is holding this pilot group hostage!

 

[johnnyb]

For the record I don't know because they don't tell us.

If I were you, THAT would concern me greatly.

 

[TWA Dude]

Once again, the lawyers are still on the job. Since they didn't take the case pro bono I'm confident the bills are being paid to their satisfaction.

 

[Taco Rocket]

Your concern further leads me to believe that you and others may wish to contribute to our cause.

What exactly is your cause at this point? Won't you now have to wait for a new contract to be negotiated, ratified, and implemented BEFORE you can sue again? Wouldn't it stand to reason it would take a minimum of 2-3 years just to get to the point of another federal lawsuit? And then the appeals.

So are you seeking donations to pay for past or future litigation attempts?
Are you incorporated as an LLC in an attempt to avoid personal liability for legal bills?

I am simply asking honest questions, not making the typical FlightInfo personal attack. Obviously this is an emotional issue, as this topic resurfaces every month. And why am I interested? This situation will impact every future industry merger.

 

[TWA Dude]

What exactly is your cause at this point?

Making sure the East knows what's ahead if they keep trying to cram down their list on us.

Won't you now have to wait for a new contract to be negotiated, ratified, and implemented BEFORE you can sue again?

Not implemented, just ratified.

Wouldn't it stand to reason it would take a minimum of 2-3 years just to get to the point of another federal lawsuit?

Don't know. Whatever it takes.

So are you seeking donations to pay for past or future litigation attempts?

All the above.

Are you incorporated as an LLC in an attempt to avoid personal liability for legal bills?

Yes.

And why am I interested? This situation will impact every future industry merger.

The NW and DAL guys already showed they learned the lesson. Get a contract first and then make the arbitrated list effective immediately. Simple, elegant, and it prevents another pilot group from behaving like the Easties.

 

[doh]

My question still hasn't been answered. The two groups agreed to binding arbitration. How does a simple name change allow one party to nullify the binding arbitration? They are as free as ALPA to abandon binding arbitration, but ALPA wasn't free to abandon it after both parties agreed to stand the arbitrator issued his ruling. The two parties are made up of the same people. How does the ruling not stand? Someone from the East please explain this to me.

 

[BeCareful!]

My question still hasn't been answered. The two groups agreed to binding arbitration. How does a simple name change allow one party to nullify the binding arbitration? They are as free as ALPA to abandon binding arbitration, but ALPA wasn't free to abandon it after both parties agreed to stand the arbitrator issued his ruling. The two parties are made up of the same people. How does the ruling not stand? Someone from the East please explain this to me.

Perhaps your question hasn't been answered because it contains spin, whether intentional or not. USAPA is vastly different than a "simple name change." That's a cute but disingenuous over simplification. It's also a popular sentiment of West pilots who are trying very hard not to understand what has occurred, the actual history of it, so they can wallow in their victim roles and cry that the big bad unscrupulous USAir pilots are stealing their A330 Trans Atlantic flying (such a big part of what they expected when they signed on at America West.)

USAPA is a vastly different organization from ALPA, one which is designed to protect everyone on the list. In terms of democratic process, it's a quantum leap from the ALPA days of "no need to vote, we know what's best." Look at our working agreement right now to see how well ALPA did with that.

You said the two parties are made up of the same people? Really? You'll have to explain that one. USAPA recruited former ALPA people when that made sense, but few of the former ALPA screw-ups are in any position of power right now, and the ones who are are being watched like hawks.

So, finally you ask how does the ruling not stand. Gee, don't know what to tell ya. Why don't you watch it go down like the rest of us and learn for yourself? Maybe we are about to learn that you can screw some of the people some of the time, you can screw a lot of people a lot of the time, but not even MLB-banned George Nicolau can screw most of the people for the rest of their working lives.

 

[BeCareful!]

Please don't insult everybody's intelligence. Must I replay the sequence of events? The War Against the West began when the AAA petulantly withdrew from joint contract negotiations during the summer of 2007.

Sure, Twadude, go ahead and replay. I'm sure you'll omit several key points where your side blew it. We gave you profit sharing (even though your side isn't profitable) and you fought us on parity. Yeah, you guys have been real gems, super pros from the get go. You guys seem to have more of your lives you like to spend ranting on the Internet, so the cyber impression is different, but your old ALPA A$$ holes started the war. Then, you formed an actual army to fight and sue.

Who cares about Nicolau. We're talking about USAPA's Duty to Fairly Represent. I'm sure you noticed that but for the ripeness issue the case was open-and-shut.

Awe, that's darling. Who cares about Nic? YOU DO, as it would turbo your career beyond anything you'd ever been able to imagine upon accepting employment at AWA. I hear your boys try to tell Parker that Addington had nothing to do with Nic. He shot that lame spin attempt down pretty quick, didn't he?

President Ahmadinejad, is that you? Your revisionist view of history will not stand. Remember how the AAA MEC sued the AWA MEC? Care to withdraw your statement?

Nope. What's the status of that lawsuit? Who was the plaintiff??? ALPA?!?
EFF ALPA, and EFF all their lame efforts, suits, and ad hoc committees. You like the past, don't ya? Like your AmWest FO status. The here and now is waiting for you to join in.

The appellate court told you when you ratify a TA with your DOH (cramdown) list it will be "unquestionably ripe". That's all that matters at this point.

Right. And for you to sleep soundly and keep having good dreams of A330 school, that's all you want to know (or admit you know) about the ramifications of losing the appeal. Sleep well.

DOH cramdown?!? God help us all! What the h#ll did you expect when you interviewed at America West Airlines? Your DOH was all you ever had, and now you want someone elses DOH?!? Jesus! You've got roughly 23% of our flying and you've closed an entire base...but you want more?

Anyway, I'm headed out to live life. Enjoy the Internet. Remember: spin and selective memory will make you feel better about everything.

 

[Ocity]

Ya, the AOL crowd has made this merger a living hell. They can't figure out DOH is the gold standard and are screwing the rest of us with their terrorist antics. AOL is holding this pilot group hostage!

The "AOL" Crowd comprises 40% of your combined pilot list. You guys may have been able to screw over 5-10% but 40% ain't gonna fly. I have to laugh at your Captains making less money than many co-pilots at ALPA/SWAPA carriers...even $75dollars/hr less that little ole' Spirit.

Some "Legacy". You will either be without a contract for years...or be back in court soon staring down the re-issue of a permanent injunction. The difference this time is you'll have voted in a Joint Contract.

Game Over. Somebody should explain reality to the CLT reps. They apparently live in a vacuum where reading comprehension isn't necessary.

 

[St. Nic]

Once AOL runs out of money this whole pilot group needs to get together and move forward. With DOH protections there is no need to worry. You have what you have

 

[Ocity]

Once AOL runs out of money this whole pilot group needs to get together and move forward. With DOH protections there is no need to worry. You have what you have

I assure you. That will never, NEVER happen. AOL doesn't have the slightest cashflow problem. Also, I love the "you have what you have" comment.

The reality is "East pilots have what West pilots HAD". You had 1879 furloughees, two decades of F.O. Reserve, and hundreds of jets parked in the desert...that's what YOU had. As for "conditions and Restrictions the PHX reps are 1. the principle member and founder of AOL and Catus 18 defendant and the other is Cactus 18 as well. How much participation do you think the BPR will get in negotiating Conditions and Restrictions from the West reps? Once again, in court, it will come out that the C&R were drafted soley by East Pilots...telling the West pilots what's fair.

Won't fly. Arbitrators determine fairness...not the majority who stands to gain an immense windfall...I can't believe how many of you guys believe this lie.

Also, doesn't it kind of display a bit of a character flaw when one so publicly announces the hope that the victims run out of money and then become unable to defend themselves against an angry mob?

The sentiment you're proclaiming is the singular strategy remaining to Seham. It speaks volumes as to the character of the USAPA supporters. Not new information however.

Integrity Matters. Your Parents were supposed to teach you that.